Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

[mjp]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

Trengove should have played more, no doubt about it and there's no guarantees that if Martin comes in, Bevo even picks him.

That's my problem with this whole scenario...I can't see how a "Ruck Only" player gets a game!

[GVGjr]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

There are already 5x players in that side who literally CANNOT get a kick.
- Richards
- Wood
- Bruce
- Gardner
- Cordy

A harsh person would add Naughton (low possession forward), Crozier (based on 2nd half of season), JJ (tagged out whenever the opposition want), Wallis (low possession forward), Lipinski (again, 2nd half of year) and Smith (R version) to the list of 5...

And now we are adding another? I disagree mate - I think we actually can make things worse. If we go into a game with a spare ruck then that means even more flicking guys around between back, mid and forward to get them a breather and with so many low possession players in the group...

We have English. We need a player who can flip-flop between ruck and forward and make a fist of things. That is why I said we should target Jackson and throw the kitchen sink at him...I would actually have a crack at getting Sinclair out of Sydney - he CAN play as a forward and would also play the role of competing at training as you suggest (not that they ever work too hard in-season in any case). As for why JT couldn't have/hasn't been playing that role in the last couple of seasons, well, I don't really understand why he hasn't or more to the point why you would think he hasn't??

From my perspective I think the underlying challenge that you have detailed can't be fixed by anyone unless the coach is prepared to change the focus and this year unless we unload Dunkley, Schache and maybe Richards we won't have the chips to be a major player
Does a 2nd year ruckman who is still learning how to be a forward and ruckman really change things that much for us in 2021? I have my doubts and that isn't in anyway knocking Jackson. Would we really venture into 2021 with 3 tall forwards or just Naughton and Jackson as key forwards?

I get Martin won't fix our challenges but there has to be some good reasons why he is in the mix to come to us and more importantly we didn't get him over to us as an unrestricted FA.

There is a fair bit to play out and I think tomorrow some of the missing pieces might become evident

[FrediKanoute]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

That's my problem with this whole scenario...I can't see how a "Ruck Only" player gets a game!

I think ruck only is an outdated plan. You would only use it if your ruck was soooooo good that you just had to pick them. The problem isn't so much English can't ruck, its finding a viable player who can give him a chop out for 20 to 30% of the time. Dunks is not the answer

[GVGjr]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

That's my problem with this whole scenario...I can't see how a "Ruck Only" player gets a game!

JT is still worth a spot on our list, 2019 proved that but something has changed and our reluctance to use him and allow English to battle through form slumps and mismatches solo just highlights that he wasn't in our plans.

I'd normally agree with the premise of your 'ruck only' logic because it really doesn't suit our MC philosophies but do you really think we would make a hard call on Bruce or move Naughton to the back line to bring in a Casboult or Sinclair type? I don't think we would

The ideal scenario for our set-up would be Blicavs midfielder ruckman or a JT type defender ruckman and they are harder to find

[Bornadog]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

I do agree and think Bevo got it wrong playing him as the lone ruckman for so long. It seems we're now committed to him operating as an understudy for a year. This should of happened much earlier. I'm not sure what the answer is but bringing Martin in is very reactive and reeks of Bevo being overruled on a failed methodology
English won't unlearn what he's learnt and hopefully his craft is enhanced by having a real ruckman at the club for a year. The English situation has been a dropped bowl of jelly but is there even a right answer to this now?

Don't forget the plan was to play Tom Boyd and English last year, but Tom pulled out (Feb 2019) and we didn't really replace him at the end of 2019, as we were chasing two KPPs.

[GVGjr]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

Don't forget the plan was to play Tom Boyd and English last year, but Tom pulled out (Feb 2019) and we didn't really replace him at the end of 2019, as we were chasing two KPPs.

We must have known that Boyd's back concerns where an inhibiting factor and there was a massive question mark on his ability to play and Boyd even sought his own medical advice. We can keep using that excuse but it just highlights how we don't manage risk and we haven't really addressed the need for a key forward who can also be a productive ruck man for a few years now

[Bornadog]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

We must have known that Boyd's back concerns where an inhibiting factor and there was a massive question mark on his ability to play and Boyd even sought his own medical advice. We can keep using that excuse but it just highlights how we don't manage risk and we haven't really addressed the need for a key forward who can also be a productive ruck man for a few years now

He didn't retire because of his back, it was more a mental illness and and he lost his passion for footy.

We have tried to bring in key forwards in Schache and Bruce. Maybe not as successful as we would have wanted.

[GVGjr]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

He didn't retire because of his back, it was more a mental illness and and he lost his passion for footy.

We have tried to bring in key forwards in Schache and Bruce. Maybe not as successful as we would have wanted.

What it highlights is that there was a massive doubt on his ability to get fit and play. That is why he sought his own medical opinions and options in an effort to get on top of a debilitating injury. Even with that in mind we ignored that challenge and we didn't plan for the scenario that he might not come good. To me it's not a plausible excuse or reason.

As for Schache and Bruce, neither were noted as back-up ruckman and anywhere near Boyds ability in that area and I doubt we can address it for next season.

[NoseBleed]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

His back is cooked, it wouldn’t and won’t stand up to AFL training and playing needs.

[The Pie Man]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

That just seems dumb. We've just bled for 3-years with him playing as #1 ruck and NOW we move him forward? When he has done all his training, learning etc as a ruckman?

If we wanted him to play predominantly forward that process should have started when he first got to the club.

Talk about being the "Lords of the after-thought". I sincerely hope I am wrong about this but if we have Martin I just see him and Sweet (and Young, and Schache) all playing 2's and the senior side looking exactly like it did in 2020.

Think that afterthought happened mid way through this year, as there was a stretch were English did play predominantly forward, and King was asked about this on SEN at the time and mentioned they wanted to see if he had any forward craft.

I’m guessing they didn’t hate what they saw - probably liked it more than his form in the ruck at the time.

One of our best quarters of the year was the 3rd quarter vs Melbourne. Josh Bruce first ruck (not sustainable, though he was good) and Tim forward (kicked a goal, looked lively, and most importantly, is a sustainable option)

If Martin can find a second wind, I reckon he plays and we either try 2-3 talls forward or drop one of Gardner (with shuffling) or Bruce.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

Best available? who else to get if not him?
A lot of it depends on the price we get him for.

[dog town]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

Trying to put myself in the the clubs shoes to attempt to understand the thought process with this. I wonder if they just want the option there for certain games?

The narrative that we get slaughtered around the ball on a weekly basis due to our ruck just isn’t correct but there is games where we needed to limit the damage. When you look at the top 4 from this year none of them have particularly dominant rucks but they have enough that they don’t get monstered. I don’t agree that it will work but maybe Martin is going to be used sparingly and against teams where we have concerns about English being physically able to compete for an extended period.

[Mofra]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

Is there anyone expecting Martin to play an entire season?

I don't think that's the plan at all. The guy was a rock up until 2020 before injury struck, and that may be how his career finishes. I see two scenarios playing out at various times next year:

a. English spends time forward as he did 2018 & 2019 pre-season when the coaching staff were "pretty excited" by what English offers forward (their words). TBH English looked a more effective forward than Josh Bruce this year.

b. Stef Martin plays 5-10 games, with English playing mostly forward during those games as a way of keeping him fresh or even rested himself.

Martin also takes a coaching/mentoring role for English and Sweet without it impacting on the soft-cap which as I understand it will tighten significantly next year. Having someone to actually train and play with Sweet and English while mentoring them will hasten their development far more than King will.

Point C - who else is there? Not sold on Mason Cox, Hickey is off to the Swans, Vardy is fragile and the Eagles would earmark him as their 'depth' option anyway. Goldy looks set to stay at North and the under-the-radar kid I really rate (Xerri) would be one of North's few 'untouchables'.

We're market takers in this scenario as as a cheap option Martin might just be the best available.

[comrade]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

Point C - who else is there? Not sold on Mason Cox, Hickey is off to the Swans, Vardy is fragile and the Eagles would earmark him as their 'depth' option anyway. Goldy looks set to stay at North and the under-the-radar kid I really rate (Xerri) would be one of North's few 'untouchables'.

We're market takers in this scenario as as a cheap option Martin might just be the best available.

Without putting words in MJPs mouth, I think the preference is to be more adventurous/aggressive and chisel a required player out from another club like Essendon has done with Dunkley (such as Jackson from Melbourne).

Easier said than done.

[Mofra]

Re: Can someone (please) explain to me the reason we would trade for Stef Martin (or another ruck only player).

Without putting words in MJPs mouth, I think the preference is to be more adventurous/aggressive and chisel a required player out from another club like Essendon has done with Dunkley (such as Jackson from Melbourne).

Easier said than done.

In that case, it comes down to a cost vs benefit analysis. Would the cost of that 'chiselling' be worth it?

The other question still stands - who else is there? Jackson is not a mature ruck, ditto Bailey Williams at WCE, and both clubs would fight tooth and nail to keep thim.
Draper has just signed a long deal at Essendon.

The aforementioned Xerri I like but is the same age as English and Sweet. If Soldo hadn't hurt his knee I would have been all for a real crack at Nank, but it's not to be. Port put up the hand to the Swans' questions about Ladhams.