Honest reflection and the path forward

[Danjul]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

I reckon we can drop one of the high profile defenders for Crozier and probably be about the same. Maybe if we drop one of the high profile defenders for Crozier we don’t turn it over 40m out from goal from a kick in with the game on the line.

The game was only on the line because of the non backmen. I thought they held up well.

We have all seen Williams and Dale kick 50m goals. We could use some of that quick penetration permanently further up the ground.

At the moment there’s too much emphasis on chipping around on the backline, resulting in many interceptions and giving the opposition time to cover our forwards. A mistake on the backline is costly and obvious, and demands being dropped. Mistakes on the forward zones are far more frequent and quickly forgotten. A forward missing goals from 25 m simply brings calls to improve.

Need better foot skills all over the ground.

We don’t need to drop anyone but we can utilise their skills better. I suspect our backmen are not the source of the current problems.

[Happy Days]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

The game was only on the line because of the non backmen. I thought they held up well.

We have all seen Williams and Dale kick 50m goals. We could use some of that quick penetration permanently further up the ground.

At the moment there’s too much emphasis on chipping around on the backline, resulting in many interceptions and giving the opposition time to cover our forwards. A mistake on the backline is costly and obvious, and demands being dropped. Mistakes on the forward zones are far more frequent and quickly forgotten. A forward missing goals from 25 m simply brings calls to improve.

Need better foot skills all over the ground.

We don’t need to drop anyone but we can utilise their skills better. I suspect our backmen are not the source of the current problems.

I’m by and large happy with the backline making due without our lead horse, but Daniel is seriously just going right now. All the flair from his game is gone and he’s making routine, costly mistakes seemingly every time he isn’t going down the line. Plus we gotta do *something* in response to that horrible performance at selection.

I’m guessing you want to play Sweet, which, sure. Draper is maybe the least skilled player I’ve ever seen and an actual idiot but he will run Martin all the way into the ground. Time to see what Sweet has got.

EDIT - I just checked the VFL stats and saw that Sweet got bodied by “Fraser Thurlow”, who it seems was delisted by Essendon in 2014 without playing a game. Maybe we stick with Martin.

[Go_Dogs]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

It’s interesting that a side like Melbourne go and target Dunstan because they realise they had a great run with injuries and need depth in that area of the ground.

Meanwhile, we miss the opportunity to address our areas where the cupboard is bare. We didn’t need superstars (would’ve been nice) and could have targeted a player or two as coverage with a thought they’d play 5 - 8 games if needed. Instead we’ve got mature coverage in areas we probably didn’t need it and haven’t improved our list.

It’s time for Bont, Macrae and other leaders to step up and demand improved performance.

[mjp]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

The game was only on the line because of the non backmen. I thought they held up well.

They held up 'pretty' well considering the number of entries.

However they were also responsible for the continued 'bang it down the line' defensive exit strategy we used (particular in q2 and q4 when the commentators indicated we were kicking with the aid of a breeze). So...yep, they defended well but I'm not 100% certain we can say the problems we had on the weekend weren't due to some of the actions/decisions made by the defensive group.

I guess the reality is you can't kick it where your team-mates AREN'T...at the same time, the player with the ball in hand is responsible for leading his team-mates to the ball and dictating the pattern of play. The player with the ball is the (temporary) king of the game...at least until they dispose of it!

[Scraggers]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

I have sat down this morning and read this thread and really enjoyed the content. But I am confused about the talk of moving Bevo on. I have said before (and continue to say) he needs a senior assistant to bounce ideas off, even a protege to train up to one day take on a senior coaching position of his/her own team. But to consider moving him on? The year after we play in a GF???

As a reminder, Bevo has taken us to two Grand Finals in eight years. That's two more than Rocket, two more than Terry Wallace ... I go back to Bob Rose and Ted Whitten coaching us in the early 70s. No coach in that time took us to the GF. Why in God's name would we even remotely consider moving on our most successful coach in our long history?

As critical as people want to be of Bevo (media included), you cannot knock what he has done and will continue to do.

[Bulldog4life]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

I am going to agree with you that the ruck is a major factor and I'm not going to comment much more except to say:

1/. I didn't like the recruitment of Martin. To me, if Brisbane couldn't keep him on the park then he simply couldn't stay fit...Combined with a player whose best footy was 100% in the rvm and, well, we've got what we recruited.
2/. By the time Sweet is ready this group will likely be done. I think we are looking 2024/25 not 22/23. I have hope for him though.

Setting that issue (the ruck) aside - we take teams for granted far too often. I wrote a post last year entitled "Our club was born in blood and boots" lamenting the effort we see from our bigger name players (at times). I feel like I am lambasted for criticising Macrae and his on-field body language whenever he is moved out of the centre square. Bont is blowing in and out like the wind. Smith has been amazing this year but is dead-set playing for 1-2 handball give + receive stats which is rubbish and my thoughts on the Treloar recruitment remain well known. Love him as a player, definitely best 22. Unfortunately he plays a position in which we already have strength when so many other areas needed bolstering.

In the Adelaide game - our reliance on inexperienced players in key positions really hurt us. Late in the game the ball was kicked forward to Jamarra who was in a 2-v-3 contest...but in front. His options were simple:
1/. Get it out of bounds, wait for the cavalry to arrive and live to fight another day.
2/. Roll the dice, keep it in by tap-tap-tapping it around and hoping for the best.

He chose option 2. He failed to recognise the importance of the moment (that's OK - he's played like 5 games) and Adelaide took the ball away and scored at the other end. Game.

Now - we can lament the loss of Bruce and blame the fact that Jamarra was the deepest and therefore the key target on injury. But I think that would be a mistake...because his MINDSET in this moment has been inherited from his team-mates.

I just think our mindset is ALL WRONG though. We treat the opposition with zero regard. Our mids zone off continuously, our forwards (exception of Naughton) go through the motions with regards applying pressure...as a result, our defenders are constantly chasing butt.

We give the opposition a look every week - our effort is not unacceptable by and large...but we don't play ruthless footy. We all want to play 'nice' footy, pretty footy...I still say we have too many who would rather LOOK good than BE good. I think our mids would all rather look at their name on the internet with a big number in the possession count than a 'W' in the win column. And I know when I say that (because I have before) I am told it isn't true and they are trying hard and don't I know there are AA players in there etc.

I know the guys I am talking about are magnificent players and I sincerely admire some of the things I have seen them produce on the footy field. But when Cripps runs around and does what he wants. When Ben Keys finishes with 33 (or whatever) and runs riot in the last q...when Petracca goes absolutely STUPID in the grand final (I mean, the GRAND FINAL) and not one player takes it upon themselves to actually DO SOMETHING about it, well, I think this means that there is something just a little bit awry with our outlook.

I'm rambling again now and I've probably ridden this horse into town too many times now to be taken seriously but if the keys to the 2016 win were the commitment shown by Morris and Liber on the defensive side of the game together with the marking of Boyd providing us a pathway out of D50, well, who is there to perform those crucial (but pretty fundamentally SIMPLE) acts in 2022?

The Adelaide loss doesn't worry me as such - it's one point and whilst they deserved the points we nearly pinched it. But the continued effort based lapses are 100% a pattern and it really is time for the players to acknowledge it and FIX it. Believe it or not, they need to fix this as individuals....as in, "I am going to do it" rather than making it a 'collective' solution...a collective answer to this question (effort and defensive accountability) means one thing to me - we have players who are trying to hide behind the group when each person needs to be held to account.

Even though he was a champion for all the players I have seen in the last 50 years G.Ablett jnr was a master of this.

[Bulldog4life]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

We are a game and percentage out of the eight atm.

And played in 2 GF's in 6 years and won one. Not too bad of a run.

[Bulldog4life]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

Just a clear back it's not hard.

Just like Naughty was.

[Boots]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

I have sat down this morning and read this thread and really enjoyed the content. But I am confused about the talk of moving Bevo on. I have said before (and continue to say) he needs a senior assistant to bounce ideas off, even a protege to train up to one day take on a senior coaching position of his/her own team. But to consider moving him on? The year after we play in a GF???

As a reminder, Bevo has taken us to two Grand Finals in eight years. That's two more than Rocket, two more than Terry Wallace ... I go back to Bob Rose and Ted Whitten coaching us in the early 70s. No coach in that time took us to the GF. Why in God's name would we even remotely consider moving on our most successful coach in our long history?

As critical as people want to be of Bevo (media included), you cannot knock what he has done and will continue to do.

Further to this, it seems an article of faith that Bevo mobilises the team through long-term emotional connection. Take this with a grain of salt, but the interviews with players in A Wink from the Universe portray Bevo as a softly-softly 'player whisperer' - especially the interview with Easton Wood about how he became an intercept marker - all through a quiet word from Bevo trying to get him to play they way he felt right, and then moving him into the right spot after his skills started to blossom. He did the same thing with Picken, and Dale, and Williams... all because of a connection of trust with the players built up over time.

It seems hard to imagine a coach in the league who relies less on being 'hard' on players, and more on trust.

Imagine if we did get Clarkson, who didn't let his players wear long sleeves. Or someone like Buckley, who is smart but like ice with his players. Half the team would crumple and a significant proportion would want out. TBH I don't even think our boys could cope with a Goodwin after they've had Bevo - Goodwin also seems to have a hard streak Bevo just lacks.

Replacing Bevo is probably the only thing that isn't an option, unless we want to spend ages in a rebuild, St. Kilda or Carlton style. And we might be there anyway. The depth we had in 2016 is well and truly gone, and it's hard to see how we'll get it back without a serious rebuild.

It's hard to see how we didn't 'bet the farm' on a premiership when we kept Dunks and got Treloar, and we didn't win.

[Boots]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

We are a game and percentage out of the eight atm.

Sure, but so are two other teams, and two more are only percentage out of the eight. It's harder to get back into the top 8 than it is to stay there.

No bad all things considered.....as bad as we have been we are a winning run away from being top 4.

I mean... that's never not true, of any team.

Top 6 is still in play though but we will need to get a rattle on. Essendon game is now very important.

It's VERY early in the season to have a "very important" game against a team we have a patchy record against, with more to prove than we have, and who can blow us off the park with manic effort alone.

I take the point fellas - need to stay positive. But I wouldn't bet on us making finals this year, and if we did I'd expect us to go out first week.

[1eyedog]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

I am going to agree with you that the ruck is a major factor and I'm not going to comment much more except to say:

1/. I didn't like the recruitment of Martin. To me, if Brisbane couldn't keep him on the park then he simply couldn't stay fit...Combined with a player whose best footy was 100% in the rvm and, well, we've got what we recruited.
2/. By the time Sweet is ready this group will likely be done. I think we are looking 2024/25 not 22/23. I have hope for him though.

Setting that issue (the ruck) aside - we take teams for granted far too often. I wrote a post last year entitled "Our club was born in blood and boots" lamenting the effort we see from our bigger name players (at times). I feel like I am lambasted for criticising Macrae and his on-field body language whenever he is moved out of the centre square. Bont is blowing in and out like the wind. Smith has been amazing this year but is dead-set playing for 1-2 handball give + receive stats which is rubbish and my thoughts on the Treloar recruitment remain well known. Love him as a player, definitely best 22. Unfortunately he plays a position in which we already have strength when so many other areas needed bolstering.

In the Adelaide game - our reliance on inexperienced players in key positions really hurt us. Late in the game the ball was kicked forward to Jamarra who was in a 2-v-3 contest...but in front. His options were simple:
1/. Get it out of bounds, wait for the cavalry to arrive and live to fight another day.
2/. Roll the dice, keep it in by tap-tap-tapping it around and hoping for the best.

He chose option 2. He failed to recognise the importance of the moment (that's OK - he's played like 5 games) and Adelaide took the ball away and scored at the other end. Game.

Now - we can lament the loss of Bruce and blame the fact that Jamarra was the deepest and therefore the key target on injury. But I think that would be a mistake...because his MINDSET in this moment has been inherited from his team-mates.

I just think our mindset is ALL WRONG though. We treat the opposition with zero regard. Our mids zone off continuously, our forwards (exception of Naughton) go through the motions with regards applying pressure...as a result, our defenders are constantly chasing butt.

We give the opposition a look every week - our effort is not unacceptable by and large...but we don't play ruthless footy. We all want to play 'nice' footy, pretty footy...I still say we have too many who would rather LOOK good than BE good. I think our mids would all rather look at their name on the internet with a big number in the possession count than a 'W' in the win column. And I know when I say that (because I have before) I am told it isn't true and they are trying hard and don't I know there are AA players in there etc.

I know the guys I am talking about are magnificent players and I sincerely admire some of the things I have seen them produce on the footy field. But when Cripps runs around and does what he wants. When Ben Keys finishes with 33 (or whatever) and runs riot in the last q...when Petracca goes absolutely STUPID in the grand final (I mean, the GRAND FINAL) and not one player takes it upon themselves to actually DO SOMETHING about it, well, I think this means that there is something just a little bit awry with our outlook.

I'm rambling again now and I've probably ridden this horse into town too many times now to be taken seriously but if the keys to the 2016 win were the commitment shown by Morris and Liber on the defensive side of the game together with the marking of Boyd providing us a pathway out of D50, well, who is there to perform those crucial (but pretty fundamentally SIMPLE) acts in 2022?

The Adelaide loss doesn't worry me as such - it's one point and whilst they deserved the points we nearly pinched it. But the continued effort based lapses are 100% a pattern and it really is time for the players to acknowledge it and FIX it. Believe it or not, they need to fix this as individuals....as in, "I am going to do it" rather than making it a 'collective' solution...a collective answer to this question (effort and defensive accountability) means one thing to me - we have players who are trying to hide behind the group when each person needs to be held to account.

I'm struggling to find an answer to why we refuse to leave everything on the park week after week. I'm worried that what you're saying is right and I'm not sure (or I'm worried) that it's not as simple as recognising the issue and making a change. It feels like this is a deeper, systemic psychological problem and I'm looking for someone to blame. Is it really the players? Is it a lack of coaching support? Is it the coach himself?

Adelaide showed what a younger, less-talented team who are prepard to get their hands dirty away from home can achieve. We are very bruise free at the moment.

[Danjul]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

I’m by and large happy with the backline making due without our lead horse, but Daniel is seriously just going right now. All the flair from his game is gone and he’s making routine, costly mistakes seemingly every time he isn’t going down the line. Plus we gotta do *something* in response to that horrible performance at selection.

I’m guessing you want to play Sweet, which, sure. Draper is maybe the least skilled player I’ve ever seen and an actual idiot but he will run Martin all the way into the ground. Time to see what Sweet has got.

EDIT - I just checked the VFL stats and saw that Sweet got bodied by “Fraser Thurlow”, who it seems was delisted by Essendon in 2014 without playing a game. Maybe we stick with Martin.

Wasn’t it Draper that gave the Essendon midfielders a dream run to goal at the end of the season last year. I can’t remember what changed to give us a win over them in the finals. But whatever it was I hope the same logic is used again.

[Bornadog]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

EDIT - I just checked the VFL stats and saw that Sweet got bodied by “Fraser Thurlow”, who it seems was delisted by Essendon in 2014 without playing a game. Maybe we stick with Martin.

I am beginning to doubt this bloke

[azabob]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

I am beginning to doubt this bloke

Happy Days or Jordan Sweet?!?!

[Axe Man]

Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

It's VERY early in the season to have a "very important" game against a team we have a patchy record against, with more to prove than we have, and who can blow us off the park with manic effort alone.

We have won 7 of the past 8 games v Essendon with an average winning margin of 53 points. Not really a patchy record. I also think we have more to prove than just about every other side at the moment. However it is difficult to have much confidence going into this week with the way we have been playing so far this season.