Sharp Axes

[josie]

Re: Sharp Axes

100% agree with lack of experienced coaches.

To me the elevation of a rookie (O?Donnell) before other vfl/afl players reeks of desperation. And the fact Bevo has belligerently stuck with it, last week costing two direct goals, is symptomatic of our problems. Surely there would be some disgruntled players who have put in consistent efforts and these weird decisions put more pressure on them if they are given a senior game, knowing Bevo has his faves who continue to be given games when their repeated form at senior level is average (I?m being generous) and stay on the list too long. Are there other clubs that have such repeated puzzling selection and player retention decisions?

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: Sharp Axes

Although we have a talented squad we still have issues with a solid KPD. Jones has been good but the rest are a bit iffy. Keath is not what he was, Gardner makes a lot of errors, Bruce is actually just ok but also new to the role.

As for the forward line, other than Lobb, the rest are all young and still learning their trade, plus we don't have a genuine small forward that can kick 35 t0 40 goals a year. Weightman plays like a mid size, Arty is still learning.

Some how Bevo has to cobble together a strong backline and hope the forwards can take their opportunities and kick goals. Talk of sacking Bevo is madness.

We can't continue to make excuses.

The forward line has been dysfunctional for a long time. We should have more than hope that the forwards can take opportunities. The system should make it easier to create and maximise opportunities.

If the coach isn't the person responsible, who is?

Madness is actually continuing to do the same thing with expectation of a different result.

[1eyedog]

Re: Sharp Axes

I don't understand this continued sentiment. From Friday night:

Duryea - Near the end, replacement level defender.
Jones - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (vaccine).
Keath - Cricket transfer recruited from Adelaide, replacement level tall defender.
Dale - AA level running defender
Bruce - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (ACL) and has totally changed roles.
Vandermeer - Mid round draft pick who has been tried in multiple roles.
Scott - Mature age rookie - replacement level at best.
Bontempelli - Superstar
Williams - Mid round draft pick. Having a better career than could have been expected.
West - Father son still battling for games 4-years (or 5 years) in. Replacement level at best.
Naughton - AA Level superstar.
Treloar - AA Level superstar
Weightman - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Ugle-Hagan - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Lobb - Mature age player now at his 3rd club. He's tall. Replacement level second ruck/forward (hard role to fill)
English - 2nd tier ruck
Daniel - AA level player
Liberatore - AA level player
Smith - AA level player
Macrae - AA Level player
O'Donnell - Categorie b rookie who's been playing footy for 5 minutes.
Jones (A) - Mid round draft pick who is playing accordingly. Still developing.

There's some quality there but I think we all get carried away with the 'talent'. Richards is another AA level player and he is missing I guess...JJ has talent but has so far exceeded his career expectations it's a joke!

I feel like the line items in your post could be applied to nearly every club. Look at St. Kilda's list and the kids at Essendon. You think our list is to blame for the poor performances?

You've circled 10 AA level superstars (not including L Jones who has been playing at that level as well) and some high draft developing kids who have shown a fair bit. What teams roll out half a squad of AA level players?

Also, its irrelevant that other mid-round players have exceeded expectations they are what they are and it just further highlights my point.

No doubt we're underachieving we are in very real danger of missing the 8 this year we are that untrustworthy.

I'm tired of accepting mediocrity we should be demanding better.

[JanLorMill]

Re: Sharp Axes

I don't understand this continued sentiment. From Friday night:

Duryea - Near the end, replacement level defender.
Jones - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (vaccine).
Keath - Cricket transfer recruited from Adelaide, replacement level tall defender.
Dale - AA level running defender
Bruce - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (ACL) and has totally changed roles.
Vandermeer - Mid round draft pick who has been tried in multiple roles.
Scott - Mature age rookie - replacement level at best.
Bontempelli - Superstar
Williams - Mid round draft pick. Having a better career than could have been expected.
West - Father son still battling for games 4-years (or 5 years) in. Replacement level at best.
Naughton - AA Level superstar.
Treloar - AA Level superstar
Weightman - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Ugle-Hagan - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Lobb - Mature age player now at his 3rd club. He's tall. Replacement level second ruck/forward (hard role to fill)
English - 2nd tier ruck
Daniel - AA level player
Liberatore - AA level player
Smith - AA level player
Macrae - AA Level player
O'Donnell - Categorie b rookie who's been playing footy for 5 minutes.
Jones (A) - Mid round draft pick who is playing accordingly. Still developing.

There's some quality there but I think we all get carried away with the 'talent'. Richards is another AA level player and he is missing I guess...JJ has talent but has so far exceeded his career expectations it's a joke!

It is the general consensus in the football world.
Yes we drop off heaps after our top liners but I would some of that is our own doing through selections and list management
What is it like in comparison to other teams?
Essendon, St kilda and the Crows all sit above us but I believe are less talented.

[Grantysghost]

Re: Sharp Axes

I don't understand this continued sentiment. From Friday night:

Duryea - Near the end, replacement level defender.
Jones - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (vaccine).
Keath - Cricket transfer recruited from Adelaide, replacement level tall defender.
Dale - AA level running defender
Bruce - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (ACL) and has totally changed roles.
Vandermeer - Mid round draft pick who has been tried in multiple roles.
Scott - Mature age rookie - replacement level at best.
Bontempelli - Superstar
Williams - Mid round draft pick. Having a better career than could have been expected.
West - Father son still battling for games 4-years (or 5 years) in. Replacement level at best.
Naughton - AA Level superstar.
Treloar - AA Level superstar
Weightman - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Ugle-Hagan - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Lobb - Mature age player now at his 3rd club. He's tall. Replacement level second ruck/forward (hard role to fill)
English - 2nd tier ruck
Daniel - AA level player
Liberatore - AA level player
Smith - AA level player
Macrae - AA Level player
O'Donnell - Categorie b rookie who's been playing footy for 5 minutes.
Jones (A) - Mid round draft pick who is playing accordingly. Still developing.

There's some quality there but I think we all get carried away with the 'talent'. Richards is another AA level player and he is missing I guess...JJ has talent but has so far exceeded his career expectations it's a joke!

English 3rd tier.

[josie]

Re: Sharp Axes

I don’t want Bevo sacked. I do want him to make logical, responsible decisions. And decent list turnover. I also want experienced senior assistants. Perhaps it’s an issue of having those more senior to him making him more accountable.

If rumour of him leaving of his own accord if we don’t make finals is true that sounds reasonable to me. If we are thumped in an elimination final I would think it is likely he would hand in his resignation too.

[1eyedog]

Re: Sharp Axes

I certainly don't want to sack Bevo during the season but it feels right that if we miss this year he walks.

[mjp]

Re: Sharp Axes

I feel like the line items in your post could be applied to nearly every club. Look at St. Kilda's list and the kids at Essendon. You think our list is to blame for the poor performances?

The difference is (St Kilda, Essendon et al) that no-one is out there claiming they have these great lists. I keep hearing 'how good' our list is and I just don't see it. Sure - as others have pointed out - some of that is our fault through 'interesting' list management - but at the same time when we run out I don't see a murderers row of performers. I see a below average defensive group, excellent group of mids and talented but inexperienced forward line.

As for selection decisions - sure, whatever. I'm surprised at JOD's continued selection but it isn't like there is another A-grader waiting in the wings. Treloar came straight back in...I'm sure Richards will be straight back in when he's ready. If JOD doesn't play I guess we play another one of the many B-C grade, replacement level players who have had opportunities in the past but failed to grab them...I just don't get the obsession with one player? You want to play Hannan instead? Fine - but I've seen that movie before as well and it isn't great. COULD he contribute more? Maybe. Would he? Well...no guarantee!!

Could we have beaten Port? Well, we nearly did (twice)....we also 'coulda' beaten Geelong (undermanned but still had Hawkins and Cameron - their BEST against our weakest line!) and we 'coulda' beaten the GC but I still say playing in Darwin one week after playing in Ballarat was a hiding to nothing and the players and coaches did the best they could.

I think all of that (last paragraph) is beyond dispute and think it 100% means that we are NOT "untrustworthy" right now. In fact, we have played with great effort and resolve since Round 3. I don't understand that line of thinking even though I have heard it a bit.

Do I want to win? Of course I do...but I just don't get the angst right now - the other teams are trying to win too and they aren't going to roll over and die...The last 3 weeks we have been right there at 3/4 time...we couldn't finish but that doesn't mean we wont be able to 'finish' forever.

Pretty safe to say some of our A-graders aren't in great form right now. The weekend off will do them good.

[mjp]

Re: Sharp Axes

100% agreed re. support staff. I feel that Bevo has been resistant to big names in the coaches box and I'm not sure why. I look at other boxes and see quality. Sydney have some very experienced assistants as does St Kilda. I actually believe outside of bringing in Lade we've had the least experienced box in the comp post-Covid.

Who in St Kilda's coaching panel is experienced?

I would love everyone who keeps talking about 'experienced coaches' coming in as assistants thinks an assistant coach does.

Because if what you think they do is over-ride the senior coach and implement their own system instead then you don't want to get a new assistant - you want to get a new coach.

If you think the develop relationships with players and lines and work with them to implement the strategy laid down by the senior coach, well, that's 100% what they do. They challenge individuals and lines to achieve set goals using a series of structures and a style of play that they practice + drill relentlessly...

I might be wrong but I feel this idea of a 'white knight' AC who will come in and 'CHANGE' Bevo to be 'someone else' (either through 'challenging him' which seems to be a common theory) or bribing him or black-mailing him or drugging him or whatever means necessary I guess...that idea is a MYTH. If you want an AC to do all that stuff then what you want is a new coach.

[GVGjr]

Re: Sharp Axes

I don't understand this continued sentiment. From Friday night:


There's some quality there but I think we all get carried away with the 'talent'. Richards is another AA level player and he is missing I guess...JJ has talent but has so far exceeded his career expectations it's a joke!

I get what you're saying but we have been passive with our list management changes most years and the script on here with discussions is typically:

Trade Period and delistings
- We have sufficiently changed the list around how much more do you want?
Draft Period
- The talent isn't there
Mid season if things aren't going great
- We have some talent but the list isn't that strong
Trade Period and delistings (Rinse and repeat cycle)
- We have sufficiently changed the list around how much more do you want?

So based on some discussions on here it's a moving target and the list is perceived as being strong enough at the seasons end where some top ups is all that is required and if the wheels fall off a bit during the season then the list is average.
Imagine if we can get a jump on it a bit earlier then we might get a better balance.

The list is roughly shaped the way the Bevo and the coaches want it and if it's not good enough then they need to do something about it and not maintain marginal players with low talent level ceilings for a year or two too long. We lost Dunks and many thought that would give us a better balance but now the list isn't rated as strong.

[Grantysghost]

Re: Sharp Axes

We lost Hunter and Dunkley both in top sides now and playing well.

Replaced with no one really, Baker isn't Hunter level.

We for some reason jettisoned a young mid (Lipinski) who would be playing now leaving a massive lack of young emerging mids.

How we couldn't sell him the vision is beyond belief.

Lobb is a complete bust I think, and like others not even slightly surprised.

Jones (Liam) has been great however we can't rely on him to carry the defence every week. He's already looking tired.

[Grantysghost]

Re: Sharp Axes

Who in St Kilda's coaching panel is experienced?

I would love everyone who keeps talking about 'experienced coaches' coming in as assistants thinks an assistant coach does.

Because if what you think they do is over-ride the senior coach and implement their own system instead then you don't want to get a new assistant - you want to get a new coach.

If you think the develop relationships with players and lines and work with them to implement the strategy laid down by the senior coach, well, that's 100% what they do. They challenge individuals and lines to achieve set goals using a series of structures and a style of play that they practice + drill relentlessly...

I might be wrong but I feel this idea of a 'white knight' AC who will come in and 'CHANGE' Bevo to be 'someone else' (either through 'challenging him' which seems to be a common theory) or bribing him or black-mailing him or drugging him or whatever means necessary I guess...that idea is a MYTH. If you want an AC to do all that stuff then what you want is a new coach.

It's not one or the other surely?

Can't we have somewhere in the middle.

I can't imagine its a dictatorial as you've described recently. That would be completely unprofessional imo

It's a coaching team for a reason, I'd expect Bevo to have the strongest voice however if he's going it alone then we are doing it wrong.

One of my best mates was part of the Saints setup for a bit and a line coach at Sandy. He said it was an open discussion at times, not at others it certainly wasn't do as I say otherwise they'd not hang around.

Maybe the skill is making them feel important and listened to and then completely ignoring them

[mjp]

Re: Sharp Axes

We lost Hunter and Dunkley both in top sides now and playing well.

Replaced with no one really, Baker isn't Hunter level.

We for some reason jettisoned a young mid (Lipinski) who would be playing now leaving a massive lack of young emerging mids.

How we couldn't sell him the vision is beyond belief.

Lobb is a complete bust I think, and like others not even slightly surprised.

Jones (Liam) has been great however we can't rely on him to carry the defence every week. He's already looking tired.

I don't mind any of that but I'm pretty sure we offered Lipinski a contract -he didn't want it because he looked at the magnets on the midfield white board and said "I'm probably not tipping out any of them"...and off he went to Collingwood. Hunter issues were personal, Dunks left for cash....

Lobb was a bad idea from the get go and many on here have been consistent with that...me amongst them. As the coach said in the club, "I'm not against buying players - it's just that you're buying the wrong ones"...

I don't know what to tell you - the fish rots from the head and all but one minute it's Bevo's coaching and not getting enough out of a list and the next it's "the list management is bad and that's the reason"...it just isn't that simple.

We lack developing mids. Many of us have been saying that but an equal number of those seem happy with Khamis in year 4-5 on the list as a developing 'something' etc etc. The list goes on...as supporters we don't want to delist these developing kids (Rhylee West anyone) even though all evidence is they aren't QUITE good enough. I'm rambling now but I really just don't understand what everyone wants the coach to do.

I guess I'm a Bevo defender/apologist - I don't mean to be. But we're playing pretty well right now and could/should be winning. Sure, criticise the JOD selections (seems crazy to me as well) but it's not like there's a lot else so why wouldn't we have a good look at him and see what might be what?

[mjp]

Re: Sharp Axes

It's not one or the other surely?

Can't we have somewhere in the middle.

I'm pretty sure that's where we are RIGHT NOW...in the middle. And that's how I described it - the coach establishes the vision - the coaches define the 'next level' (architect to engineers). But whilst everyone would have input to the plan, it is the COACH who ultimately has the final say.

Everyone needs to know their role and play their part (just like in every team).

As I said though

[Rocco Jones]

Re: Sharp Axes

I think most (all?) successful coaches are 'stubborn'.

The difference between stupidly stubborn and innovative genius is winning. Choosing smart things to be stubborn about. Assistants should be their primarily to support the head coach in the way they (the senior coach) sees fit. If they fail, it's on them but I am not a believer in getting a senior assistant to 'challenge' the senior coach. As mjp says, in that instance, sack the coach.

The quality of the cattle is so subjective and open to affirmation bias. If you rate Bevo, he is lifting the perceived quality of players. He makes Dale AA by moving him to HBF etc. If you do not rate Bevo, there's a bunch of guys underperforming and all the players performing are doing it largely despite Bevo. Pro Bevo, Lewy Young sucks again see? Anti Bevo, Lewy's confidence was destroyed and he would be a better player now if he was shown faith.

What we need is Grant and co. to be highly competent and know when to hold them and when to fold them. Outside looking in, rest of the season obviously massive to whether Bevo is the right guy to lead the club. As long as the locker room is still with him(-ish), I say we definitely stick with him for at least the end of the season.