Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

[Bornadog]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

I had a bit of a chat to some of the guys on the weekend and I am of the belief that we are looking at 5 (possibly 6) changes and I believe that we have a draft smokey well and truly in our sight.

5 to 6, well we have to put on our thinking caps now.

[Bornadog]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

Given the change in the draft age and the addition of the GC, I think we need 6 picks this year.

Delist:

- McDougall (well, he has retired anyway).
- O'Shea (try and rookie list I guess, but is he ever going to be a strong every week contributor).
- Wight (see O'Shea without the rookie list option. Has some talent, but not a 22 week AFL player).
- Street (Not sure what value he is adding now. He is a backup only and nearing 30).
- Lynch (Passed by too many others. Small, light framed and lacking in commitment).
- Skipper (Like Wight, has never been able to nail a spot. Too small to play in the position he has the most aptitude for (ruck) which is a shame for him I guess).

West can make his own decision. We should back him in if he wants to go again - he has had two bad years injury wise (1996 and 2008) in his career...that said, he is not going to get any better so I would understand if he was encouraged to retire.

Thats five talls (including OShea)

[Mantis]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

Thats five talls (including OShea)

But realistically are these talls ever going to improve our team?

We have to cut our losses at some stage.

[Bornadog]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

But realistically are these talls ever going to improve our team?

We have to cut our losses at some stage.

Agree, but need replacements.

[Go_Dogs]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

Given the change in the draft age and the addition of the GC, I think we need 6 picks this year.

Delist:

- McDougall (well, he has retired anyway).
- O'Shea (try and rookie list I guess, but is he ever going to be a strong every week contributor).
- Wight (see O'Shea without the rookie list option. Has some talent, but not a 22 week AFL player).
- Street (Not sure what value he is adding now. He is a backup only and nearing 30).
- Lynch (Passed by too many others. Small, light framed and lacking in commitment).
- Skipper (Like Wight, has never been able to nail a spot. Too small to play in the position he has the most aptitude for (ruck) which is a shame for him I guess).

West can make his own decision. We should back him in if he wants to go again - he has had two bad years injury wise (1996 and 2008) in his career...that said, he is not going to get any better so I would understand if he was encouraged to retire.

Interesting analysis, and probably one that is pretty accurate...

On a side note I guess, do you feel that there is such a thing as too much turn-over of a list mjp? Reason I ask is over the past few years we have done a pretty big clean out of the list and drafted a lot of young players.

And a guy like O'Shea, who was picked up very bottom aged in 2006, so in essence this year is like his first on the senior list (he wouldn't have been much older than a lot of the kids we drafted in 2007) seems to have not really been given much time to develop, especially as a taller player. His performances this year have not been outstanding, but what would the club expect of a tall in his 'first' year on the senior list?

Is that simply the reality now, that if you can't show that you'll be a 200 game AFL player in your first couple of years that you get moved on?

What about a player like Lynch, who initially seemed to me the most likely of our 2006 bunch to actually make it, due to his maturity and seemingly having his head screwed on pretty well?

Sure, he blew his chance this year by not working hard enough over the pre-season and subsequently getting injured, and basically not being able to get on the park, but he played some OK footy in his first year, and surely is aware that such a performance wouldn't be tolerated again.

Especially if we're getting really close to a flag (like it appears we are) is it really worth moving on blokes who could have an impact next year and the year after in favor of more kids who'll probably need a few years in the system to adapt?

FWIW, I'm all for de-listing a few of the older guys mentioned, as they have all had pretty good chances to make a fist of it. Some of the younger guys, to me at least, it seems a bit pre-mature. But I guess without being in the inner-sanction and knowing everything they know, it's hard to asses....

(Long post, sorry!)

[mjp]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

Well, my concern with the 'too much turnover' theory - and there is something to say for it - is that if there are players on the list who the coaching staff wouldn't be comfortable playing then they shouldn't be on the list. I know O'Shea is still only young, but he was a late, speculative pick...to me, there is simply no way he could play AFL footy in 2009, therefore he should be on the Rookie list at best. And I dont think it is a matter of showing you could be a 200-game player, but with lists as small as they are you simply cannot afford to carry more that 6-8 'non-contributors'. If you add three draftee's to our current list of Grant, Boumann, Wood, O'Keefe, Reid, Ward, Lynch, Stack, O'Shea, Lynch et al (and I know Cal Ward has played a couple of games) then you can see that they simply cannot ALL remain on the list.

I guess I am surprised players like Eagleton are suggested as delisting targets...he either needs to be traded (and I doubt anyone else would want him) or kept for depth...we simply have no depth at the club, and our list really falls away from about player 15 on. I think we need to get as many early picks as possible and try and add a little bit of class into the group...trade picks, trade players, trade whatever but get into that top echelon of the draft.

[Mantis]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

I guess I am surprised players like Eagleton are suggested as delisting targets...he either needs to be traded (and I doubt anyone else would want him) or kept for depth...we simply have no depth at the club, and our list really falls away from about player 15 on. I think we need to get as many early picks as possible and try and add a little bit of class into the group...trade picks, trade players, trade whatever but get into that top echelon of the draft.

But to to get those early picks we will need to give away player/s the average supporter will want to keep, but I agree that we might have to break up the list a little to achieve this.

We need to add some real quality to our list and as this year might be the last time we can do it for "x" amount of years we have to act now.

[Bornadog]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

But to to get those early picks we will need to give away player/s the average supporter will want to keep, but I agree that we might have to break up the list a little to achieve this.

We need to add some real quality to our list and as this year might be the last time we can do it for "x" amount of years we have to act now.

I guess the first thing is to work out what type of players we need, then work out who we can trade that we either don't need or who have excess of, or have replacements coming through.

We need:

Young Ruckman
CHF/FF
Replacements for ageing players ready to fill roles in 2010 - Johnno, Aker, Eagle, Hudson, Welsh, West

In other words a succession plan.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

Given the change in the draft age and the addition of the GC, I think we need 6 picks this year.

Delist:

- McDougall (well, he has retired anyway).
- O'Shea (try and rookie list I guess, but is he ever going to be a strong every week contributor).
- Wight (see O'Shea without the rookie list option. Has some talent, but not a 22 week AFL player).
- Street (Not sure what value he is adding now. He is a backup only and nearing 30).
- Lynch (Passed by too many others. Small, light framed and lacking in commitment).
- Skipper (Like Wight, has never been able to nail a spot. Too small to play in the position he has the most aptitude for (ruck) which is a shame for him I guess).

West can make his own decision. We should back him in if he wants to go again - he has had two bad years injury wise (1996 and 2008) in his career...that said, he is not going to get any better so I would understand if he was encouraged to retire.

They were the exact same 6 I came up with although I am worried about what would happen next year if Hudson or Minson went down.

I'd even consider having a look at a 22-25yo ruckman who hasn't quite got there and think about whether he could turn it around (is Laycock too big of a gumby?).

Whether we draft another ruckman depends on whether they think Mulligan or Shaw are worth hanging on to.

I'd like to see another KP for either end and some genuine pace.

I hear were looking at Mitch Banner - which is fine, there's no such thing as having too many good players - but any other midfielders would need to have real speed.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

They were the exact same 6 I came up with although I am worried about what would happen next year if Hudson or Minson went down.

I'd even consider having a look at a 22-25yo ruckman who hasn't quite got there and think about whether he could turn it around (is Laycock too big of a gumby?).

Whether we draft another ruckman depends on whether they think Mulligan or Shaw are worth hanging on to.

I'd like to see another KP for either end and some genuine pace.

I hear were looking at Mitch Banner - which is fine, there's no such thing as having too many good players - but any other midfielders would need to have real speed.

I think many (certainly not all) thought Petrie was a gumby too.

But Laycock shouldn't be playing AFL let alone VFL. I would be surprised to see him in the AFL next year myself.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

I think many (certainly not all) thought Petrie was a gumby too.

But Laycock shouldn't be playing AFL let alone VFL. I would be surprised to see him in the AFL next year myself.

I thought Cameron Cloke was just about the worst player I had ever seen but he's been serviceable this year.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

I thought Cameron Cloke was just about the worst player I had ever seen but he's been serviceable this year.

Yeah that's what tears me into two streams of thinking. If we don't have Street we don't have a back-up. Skipper is not a ruckman in any terms. If Laycock was pick 84 or something perhaps on a salary of next to nothing.

Essentially it's no different than what Doogs was giving us this year, or last year. Or WCE the four years before that...

[Bornadog]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

I am worried about what would happen next year if Hudson or Minson went down.

Well we would do what any other team would do, stick a kid in ruck - Mulligan, Ayce Cordy for example.

[Go_Dogs]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

Well, my concern with the 'too much turnover' theory - and there is something to say for it - is that if there are players on the list who the coaching staff wouldn't be comfortable playing then they shouldn't be on the list. I know O'Shea is still only young, but he was a late, speculative pick...to me, there is simply no way he could play AFL footy in 2009, therefore he should be on the Rookie list at best. And I dont think it is a matter of showing you could be a 200-game player, but with lists as small as they are you simply cannot afford to carry more that 6-8 'non-contributors'. If you add three draftee's to our current list of Grant, Boumann, Wood, O'Keefe, Reid, Ward, Lynch, Stack, O'Shea, Lynch et al (and I know Cal Ward has played a couple of games) then you can see that they simply cannot ALL remain on the list.

Fair enough points, and I tend to agree that you can't have the list littered with players who aren't going to get on the park. I guess at this stage its fair to say O'Keefe, Reid, Ward, Stack and hopefully Grant and Wood will all be looking to have a say in the senior side next year, although there are no absolute guarantees. At this stage Ward seems the one most likely to play some serious senior footy. That leaves us looking ok for having a fair few selections at the draft, particularly if Lynch and O'Shea are moved off the senior list.

The thing that scares me though is a lot of the players will be young guys, Higgins, Everitt, Williams, Hill, Harbrow, Ward, Addison, Callan etc are not guys with a lot of experience...we're really going to be fielding a pretty young side.

If we do go that route, I hope we take a few selections in the draft who are 'ready made' players who are going to be able to step up in their first year, or perhaps a bit older in the 20/21 bracket with a bit of SANFL or VFL experience...otherwise we'll be looking a bit thin in experience and proven, hard bodied players to really cash in over the next 1-2 years (but probably looking really good in the slightly longer term, 3-5 years).

Pretty interesting draft/list management time for the club this end of season...

[Bornadog]

Re: Round 22 - The season proper over, whose career ends

The thing that scares me though is a lot of the players will be young guys, Higgins, Everitt, Williams, Hill, Harbrow, Ward, Addison, Callan etc are not guys with a lot of experience...we're really going to be fielding a pretty young side.

..

Interesting fact was last weeks game against Essendon, we had 14 players with 100 games or less and so did Essendon. Of those , Essendon had 8 with less than 50 and we had 7, so we are a fairly young side. 100 to 150 and 150 plus were even, ie, 4 and 4 for both clubs. I guess the nbig difference is our players with over 100 games are better than Essendon's. Just goes to show their list management has been pretty bad.