Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

[Mantis]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

Cool.

And what happens if they miss 17 of them? Going in feeling SUPER confident, right.

Just having shots at goal doesn't make you a better kick for goal...

Improving your technique and routine does help though, and sometimes you need to peel things back and almost start again… I take things back to golf as it’s a sport that I had a passion for back when I had some more time and was able to improve my game over time through instruction, changing techniques and then perfecting it through practice. I went backwards before improving, but over time I improved to a point where I consistently knew where my ball was going to go and with what shape (straight, fade or draw).

The fact that players within our team whose responsibility is to kick goals haven’t appeared to change anything with regard to technique or routine is unacceptable and is the definition of insanity.

[1eyedog]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

Cool.

And what happens if they miss 17 of them? Going in feeling SUPER confident, right.

Just having shots at goal doesn't make you a better kick for goal...

It does actually if you commit to a basic routine and put in the work. I agree though you are naturally disposed to being either a good shot for goal or not but you can make yourself more efficient over time with hard work (unless your Richo or N Riewoldt).

I've coached plenty of junior boys and girls into being better set shot kickers using a basic routine and practice, practice, practice.

Problem is many don't want to practice because it quickly becomes boring.

[mjp]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

It does actually if you commit to a basic routine and put in the work. I agree though you are naturally disposed to being either a good shot for goal or not but you can make yourself more efficient over time with hard work (unless your Richo or N Riewoldt).

I've coached plenty of junior boys and girls into being better set shot kickers using a basic routine and practice, practice, practice.

Problem is many don't want to practice because it quickly becomes boring.

What's focussing on development and coaching to a plan got to do with making players have 20x shots for goal each week and publishing the results online?

[1eyedog]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

What's focussing on development and coaching to a plan got to do with making players have 20x shots for goal each week and publishing the results online?

It's called putting what you've learnt into action. It's part of a 3-way package and critical to being better.

[mjp]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

Improving your technique and routine does help though, and sometimes you need to peel things back and almost start again… I take things back to golf as it’s a sport that I had a passion for back when I had some more time and was able to improve my game over time through instruction, changing techniques and then perfecting it through practice. I went backwards before improving, but over time I improved to a point where I consistently knew where my ball was going to go and with what shape (straight, fade or draw).

OK - well, setting the golf example aside (a stationary target that you hit from the same spot every time is just nowhere next to the same as running in and kicking a footy even though every golfer - and every basket-baller who once upon a time sunk a free-throw thinks it is) no-one said anything about practising your routine. The suggestion was that the players all have 20-shots at goal each week and the results be published...

My point was although that sounds cool:

1/. It's not real. Simply practicing shots at goal outside of the fatigue and pressure of a game can do only SO much.
2/. If a player misses a heap - even though it's 'not real' - how do you think they would approach the game that weekend if the stadium collectively groans every time they go back to shoot for goal?

Everyone has confidence in their kicking until they miss...and when you miss, you worry. And worry = stress which causes you to go back to your worst habits. If I use your example with golf - but more specifically with PUTTING which is kind of relatable to goal kicking - the majority of golfers are 'streaky' and have good and bad days/tournaments/months...and their earnings ARE directly impacted.

For all of the soccer heads out there, penalties are routinely missed in big matches even though the ball is stationary and in the same bleeding spot every time...and the ball is ROUND.

Is our kicking for goal good enough? No. Is the fix simple? No. I don't get why we all think just doing 'more' is the best plan when we don't know what they are actually doing right now.

Is there a place for a dedicated kicking coach? Of course there is and it should be considered 100%...but I don't think we have one right now and if you think the line coaches are sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day I'm pretty sure they aren't.

[G-Mo77]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

I do make the comparison to a basketball Free Throw as I find it similar. It's a routine, if you miss, you adjust and you'll likely make the 2nd. It's the same shot every time and it is still surprising that so many miss them. Football is a little different, ball is oval shape, weather elements and you're not kicking from the same spot but the routine should stay the same every time. Same run up, same drop, same drop onto the foot and power, it should never change.

[mjp]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

In basketball you don't have to move your feet and co-ordinate between upper and lower...

[GVGjr]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

1/. It's not real. Simply practicing shots at goal outside of the fatigue and pressure of a game can do only SO much.
2/. If a player misses a heap - even though it's 'not real' - how do you think they would approach the game that weekend if the stadium collectively groans every time they go back to shoot for goal?

Everyone has confidence in their kicking until they miss...and when you miss, you worry. And worry = stress which causes you to go back to your worst habits. If I use your example with golf - but more specifically with PUTTING which is kind of relatable to goal kicking - the majority of golfers are 'streaky' and have good and bad days/tournaments/months...and their earnings ARE directly impacted.

For all of the soccer heads out there, penalties are routinely missed in big matches even though the ball is stationary and in the same bleeding spot every time...and the ball is ROUND.

Is our kicking for goal good enough? No. Is the fix simple? No. I don't get why we all think just doing 'more' is the best plan when we don't know what they are actually doing right now.

Is there a place for a dedicated kicking coach? Of course there is and it should be considered 100%...but I don't think we have one right now and if you think the line coaches are sitting around twiddling their thumbs all day I'm pretty sure they aren't.

I'm a big believer that quality practice can make you better at most skills in a number of sports and over the summer months I got to see how hard players and the coaches work. I think I have a greater appreciation of the coaches and players because of it.
What I haven't seen much of is goal kicking practice and in particular quality or fully focused practice of that skill.
A lot of players faces light up and they bring an increased level of intensity when they get to practice dribble kicks for goal from what most average suburban league standard footballers would consider impossible angles and to the players credit they get some fantastic results.
What is a lot harder for fans who played at a vastly lower level is to accept is continued missed set shots or easy shots from our players when they have the added luxury of playing in the pristine conditions of a dome. It's a problem that has dragged on for years and soft cap limitations or not our coaches need to be strong enough and honest enough that they don't have the skills required to improve our list in that area as is evident.
I'm not sure I buy into a theory that some more practice might not necessarily help with the players confidence or their results but if the same players can't get over the yips then the more average players need to be moved on or their time as a forward needs to minimised.
While Mantis has referred to some golf scenario's and to your point it's a round stationary ball and it might not be relevant I look at some of the goal kicking exploits of Ruby Union players and they're consistently accurate. The ball isn't round, they rarely play in a dome and they have a similar level of fatigue thrown into the mix. They're not missing from 25 to 30 mtrs out.
Not a perfect comparison but somewhat similar.

We need to be prepared to bring in some outside expertise and see if improvement can be made because our current approach isn't working like we need it to.

[G-Mo77]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

In basketball you don't have to move your feet and co-ordinate between upper and lower...

Regardless it is still a routine. How many players adjust their routine the closer they are to goal? Short run up, stab at the ball. It shouldn't change. The routine should be practiced over and over and it's pretty well known that we do not practice goal kicking much.

[GVGjr]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

Regardless it is still a routine. How many players adjust their routine the closer they are to goal? Short run up, stab at the ball. It shouldn't change. The routine should be practiced over and over and it's pretty well known that we do not practice goal kicking much.

To me there are different ball drops for a player on the run or taking a set shot with someone on the mark and I don't think we've mastered that.
Akermanis was one player who had two very different kicking styles in those scenarios.

[mjp]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

I'm a big believer that quality practice can make you better at most skills in a number of sports and over the summer months I got to see how hard players and the coaches work.

Me too! Totally agree that practicing helps.

I'm not sure I buy into a theory that some more practice might not necessarily help with the players confidence or their results but if the same players can't get over the yips then the more average players need to be moved on or their time as a forward needs to minimised.

I never said more practice wouldn't help. I said a public competition where each player had to have 20-shots on goal and the results would be published wouldn't work...

...I look at some of the goal kicking exploits of Ruby Union players and they're consistently accurate. The ball isn't round, they rarely play in a dome and they have a similar level of fatigue thrown into the mix. They're not missing from 25 to 30 mtrs out.
Not a perfect comparison but somewhat similar.

It's not similar at all. The ball is on a TEE! They don't have to co-ordinate upper and lower...

Kicking a footy is hard and a LOT can go wrong. The less moving parts, the less that can go wrong...and once things go wrong and individuals and coaches start messing with technique all trying to 'FIX' the problem, you end up with a Harry McKay situation.

Let me try and go back to base principles:

1/. I think practicing is good. :-)
2/. I think having a set routine - physical and mental - for set shots is good. :-)
3/. I think EVERY time you shoot for goal - training and game - it should look 'the same'. :-)

I'm not sure why we would be arguing about any of this.

BUT - everyone is different...and I guess I'm tired of the 'how hard can it be' synopsis...'cos it's pretty obviously very hard. Is just accepting misses OK? No - of course not. But a few weeks ago GWS couldn't hit the side of a barn and no one seemed to put our win down to the fact that they missed easy goals - likely the Geelong fans aren't too bothered with our goal-kicking woes from the weekend and the vast majority would have barely noticed. Their team kicked them so who cares, right?

Do we need to practice and get better? Of course. Is seeking out a specialist a good plan? Maybe.

There are no easy fixes here though and to suggest there are is simplistic at best.

[mjp]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

Regardless it is still a routine. How many players adjust their routine the closer they are to goal? Short run up, stab at the ball. It shouldn't change. The routine should be practiced over and over and it's pretty well known that we do not practice goal kicking much.

Do players shoot with different technique from the free throw line to when they are having a shot from outside of the arc?

Of course they do.

So why would you say it shouldn't change for football players?

Every shot from 40m should look 'the same'. But not necessarily like every shot from 20m. Or every shot from 50m.

[Sedat]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

There are no easy fixes here though and to suggest there are is simplistic at best.

Is there an easier fix by identifying where the shots are taken as opposed to how many are being missed, and rectifying the connection between the mids/forwards so that we are getting cleaner entries and better looks (and theoretically better conversion would follow)?

Sydney and Geelong seem to have better/higher conversion rates because they prioritise ball retention/better looks inside F50. Is our game plan of dirty ball/kick it to the hotspot into F50 preventing us from having better looks and therefore always being on the wrong end of the conversion ledger? Our goalkicking accuracy is not a problem limited to the past fortnight.

[GVGjr]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

It's not similar at all. The ball is on a TEE! They don't have to co-ordinate upper and lower...

I get that but if the tee is making it easier does thins mean the ball drop is the challenge for players?
It certainly looks like a timing issue for Naughton and the ball drop from McNeil on Saturday night wasn't great.

Kicking a footy is hard and a LOT can go wrong. The less moving parts, the less that can go wrong...and once things go wrong and individuals and coaches start messing with technique all trying to 'FIX' the problem, you end up with a Harry McKay situation.

Let me try and go back to base principles:

1/. I think practicing is good. :-)
2/. I think having a set routine - physical and mental - for set shots is good. :-)
3/. I think EVERY time you shoot for goal - training and game - it should look 'the same'. :-)

I'm not sure why we would be arguing about any of this.

BUT - everyone is different...and I guess I'm tired of the 'how hard can it be' synopsis...'cos it's pretty obviously very hard. Is just accepting misses OK? No - of course not. But a few weeks ago GWS couldn't hit the side of a barn and no one seemed to put our win down to the fact that they missed easy goals - likely the Geelong fans aren't too bothered with our goal-kicking woes from the weekend and the vast majority would have barely noticed. Their team kicked them so who cares, right?

Do we need to practice and get better? Of course. Is seeking out a specialist a good plan? Maybe.

There are no easy fixes here though and to suggest there are is simplistic at best.

Nothing is simplistic but we've been writing off our goal kicking accuracy challenges for too long without bringing in some outside help.
I'd be happy enough if the club at least tried something else or brought in someone to work with a few players.

[mjp]

Re: Calm down - we lost by 4x goals.

I get that but if the tee is making it easier does thins mean the ball drop is the challenge for players?
It certainly looks like a timing issue for Naughton and the ball drop from McNeil on Saturday night wasn't great.

Nothing is simplistic but we've been writing off our goal kicking accuracy challenges for too long without bringing in some outside help.
I'd be happy enough if the club at least tried something else or brought in someone to work with a few players.

Yes - the tee makes it way easier. And yes, it's the ball drop that is the wild card or more specifically, the co-ordination between the ball drop and the leg swing...one small change either way can lead to big (and inconsistent) changes in outcome...so it needs to be managed.

Do we need to do a better job of managing it? I'm happy with that but saying 'Get Sav Rocca' doesn't mean that's a solution...