Tim English - What Price do you pay?

[Sedat]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

This is what people seem to want from a ruckman.

I just want to know what are they looking for in a ruck player.

50 Hitouts with 10 HTA and 2 marks around the ground - yeah perfect

What I want to see from our 1st ruck is to consistently compete strongly at every stoppage and marking contest. I want an over-ager drafted 8 years ago to be uncompromising in their attitude and to welcome body contact from their opponent, because space is in short supply in finals - I actually want our 1st ruck to ragdoll and monster the players that ragdolled him when he was younger. I certainly don't want to see us concede multiple critical stoppage goals in finals ever again, like has happened in the 2020 EF, 2021 GF and 2022 EF (all against younger ruck opponents).

I had serious reservations about English's competitive hunger in the contest (ruck and aerial) as early as 2019, and 5 years later he hasn't yet consistently delivered in this area (especially not in finals or against top 4 opposition). He has amazing weapons for someone so tall, which IMO far better suit him as an elite forward/2nd ruck. It's no longer an age thing (I would argue it never was). Look at someone a few years younger like TDK - he is a similarly athletic beast but he loves the body contact and relishes the stoppage/aerial battles, which for mine is an absolute non-negotiable for your 1st ruck.

Can English step up and consistently give us what we desperately need? Does he really have it in him to be that 1st ruck beast at stoppage/marking contests without compromising his elite athletic traits? It's solely up to him. Do we reimagine his role in the future if we re-sign him? After 8 years, there are still so many unanswered questions.

[hujsh]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

What I want to see from our 1st ruck is to consistently compete strongly at every stoppage and marking contest. I want an over-ager drafted 8 years ago to be uncompromising in their attitude and to welcome body contact from their opponent, because space is in short supply in finals - I actually want our 1st ruck to ragdoll and monster the players that ragdolled him when he was younger. I certainly don't want to see us concede multiple critical stoppage goals in finals ever again, like has happened in the 2020 EF, 2021 GF and 2022 EF (all against younger ruck opponents).

I had serious reservations about English's competitive hunger in the contest (ruck and aerial) as early as 2019, and 5 years later he hasn't yet consistently delivered in this area (especially not in finals or against top 4 opposition). He has amazing weapons for someone so tall, which IMO far better suit him as an elite forward/2nd ruck. It's no longer an age thing (I would argue it never was). Look at someone a few years younger like TDK - he is a similarly athletic beast but he loves the body contact and relishes the stoppage/aerial battles, which for mine is an absolute non-negotiable for your 1st ruck.

Can English step up and give us what we desperately need? Does he really have it in him to be that 1st ruck beast at stoppage/marking contest without compromising his elite athletic traits? It's solely up to him. Do we reimagine his role in the future if we re-sign him? After 8 years, there are still so many unanswered questions.

Do you see it in Darcy?

[Sedat]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

Do you see it in Darcy?

Hell yes. He's built like a twig but he has that uncompromising hunger and desire to compete - IMO either you have that innate hunger or you don't. Body strength certainly helps but that only assists an existing mindset, it doesn't replace the mindset.

The difference between the two is stark in that aspect.

[hujsh]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

Hell yes. He's built like a twig but he has that uncompromising hunger and desire to compete. The difference between the two is stark in that aspect.

Do you think that could be the answer longer term then? English transitions to Darcy's role as Darcy becomes more able to to assert himself in the middle?

[Sedat]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

Do you think that could be the answer longer term then? English transitions to Darcy's role as Darcy becomes more able to to assert himself in the middle?

It's definitely an option. English has elite traits that are in short supply in the competition. I'd like to see a bigger sample size of Darcy in ruck, as he is still sometimes a liability in there due to his lack of size/experience against the really big boys - he is only a 20 gamer with 1 decent pre-season under his belt.

So ironically English may well be worth 800-900k a season for 5 years, just not as no 1 ruck IMO. And if he exercises his FA, we have a very good AFL quality 2nd ruck/forward replacement under contract for the next 2 years. Pretty good position to be in and there's no rush at all to finalise IMO.

[JanLorMill]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

Look BAD, it's time to face facts. We can just replace Tim with a dude from the bush because it's actually easy to find solid ruckmen and also we can recruit his best mate Nuggety Back Pocket who will hold Charlie Cameron to 1 goal 4 disposals in a final for us. Worst case find someone's 4th ruck and pay him 50k a year and watch him become the next Hudson. These are all strategies likely to succeed. No further elaboration or context is required. (this is partly making fun of my own comments previously since my thoughts weren't too far from this pre-season)

No one has said this. Are trying to be funny?

[Mitcha]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

One with a bit of aggression and who isn?t pushed out of the contest.

Name names then mate, who would fit your parameters and how would we get them. Don't give me the problem, give me a solution. By the way I actually think you may be Danjul in disguise who is still dirty that Sweety has departed.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

Boy this thread is gonna be fun reading after the Port match. Only one of Team Sweety or Team Timmy can win.

[mighty_west]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

I like Timmy, but he does have his limitations as we all know, i just really see him as a big loaf of a Utility player, if he was playing in the 80's the Scanlans footy card would label him as a Utility, a little like Lobb, can play forward like Lobb, can ruck a bit like Lobb but is better generally around the ground than Lobb although Lobbly can certainly have his days.

I think it was Richmomd earlier in the season where they played their two rucks Nank and Naismith in the same game, it just didn't work because both would be seen as number 1 ruck types, can ruck well but limited around the ground, can't really park them forward or back where's for mine, English and Lobb are the opposite, not excellent in the ruck contest but can play a key position role which is why i brought up a while back that Freo should look to trying to swap Darcy and English or at least trade out Sean and bring Timmy in, as Jackson would be the perfect number 1 ruck whilst Timmy plays forward 70% or so of the time to compliment their other key forwards (not what i want but what Freo should be looking at).

Maybe one of those 4 way deals where Geelong get Darcy, Freo get English, Dogs get Barrass and WC get draft picks from Geelong or something like that, all needs for each club.

We obviously have an offer on the table for Tim and should NOT go above what we think as a club he is worth, if he and his camp are expecting more then 'ta ta thanks for your services but more than happy to keep him for what the club believes he is worth.

[jeemak]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

No one has said this. Are trying to be funny?

hujsh kinda said it, thus him saying so in his post.

[hujsh]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

No one has said this. Are trying to be funny?

Who rucks next year?

[JanLorMill]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

Name names then mate, who would fit your parameters and how would we get them. Don't give me the problem, give me a solution. By the way I actually think you may be Danjul in disguise who is still dirty that Sweety has departed.

I’ve already gone through this and others have too. We have Darcy still raw and at 550K Lobb could do it. I’m not pushing English out he isn’t worth 900K a season.

[hujsh]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

I’ve already gone through this and others have too. We have Darcy still raw and at 550K Lobb could do it. I’m not pushing English out he isn’t worth 900K a season.

So it's Darcy and Lobb. If Lobb locks down a spot in defence (big IF so early in the experiment but a good start) that leaves us with Darcy and... Smith? Not super reassuring. There just has to be an alternative if we're letting him walk because we don't want to pay 900k. Especially when 900K post salary cap increases is probably not that much more than the likes of Darcy Cameron (though I can find nothing to indicate his salary so that is guesswork). That's why it's not just a question of 'Is English worth it' it's 'is English worth it in context of the alternatives'.

It's not like we have a bunch of big name recruits lining up to join us and we're losing Smith/lost Dunkley. If English signed at 900K for reasonable length we have something to work with at least. He's frustrating as **** but I'm warming to the idea of him transitioning more forward as Darcy matures giving us maybe the best 1-2 ruck combo in the competition. The way he's going that number is steadily dropping anyway so maybe we get him cheaper (is that a bright side to him struggling?)

[JanLorMill]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

So it's Darcy and Lobb. If Lobb locks down a spot in defence (big IF so early in the experiment but a good start) that leaves us with Darcy and... Smith? Not super reassuring. There just has to be an alternative if we're letting him walk because we don't want to pay 900k. Especially when 900K post salary cap increases is probably not that much more than the likes of Darcy Cameron (though I can find nothing to indicate his salary so that is guesswork). That's why it's not just a question of 'Is English worth it' it's 'is English worth it in context of the alternatives'.

It's not like we have a bunch of big name recruits lining up to join us and we're losing Smith/lost Dunkley. If English signed at 900K for reasonable length we have something to work with at least. He's frustrating as **** but I'm warming to the idea of him transitioning more forward as Darcy matures giving us maybe the best 1-2 ruck combo in the competition. The way he's going that number is steadily dropping anyway so maybe we get him cheaper (is that a bright side to him struggling?)

I went through this at least a month ago.
Lobb?s one game at CHB hasn?t suddenly made a star there. We are after Barrass anyway. If he is required in the ruck, then he is the best alternative. If you think 3 listed rucks isn?t enough then get Bryan type as insurance.
Little proof English will work as a ruck forward.

[hujsh]

Re: Tim English - What Price do you pay?

I went through this at least a month ago.
Lobb?s one game at CHB hasn?t suddenly made a star there. We are after Barrass anyway. If he is required in the ruck, then he is the best alternative. If you think 3 listed rucks isn?t enough then get Bryan type as insurance.
Little proof English will work as a ruck forward.

Where is bloody Danjul?

If Lobb has cemented himself at CBH by the end of the year moving him to the ruck to avoid paying English feels like playing silly buggers. Leaves us with 2 rucks, if we put to the side for a moment our interest in Barass that's totally leading to a trade and in no way is just to pressure WCE into doing the contract extension.