Tiller as a forward?

[ledge]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

It's days like these where I'm very pleased that none of you yahoos are in control of the football department at WBFC.

And you have reasons for this statement to back it up?

[LostDoggy]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

Tiller is not even a permanent fixture of our backline, let alone a candidate for a move into our forward line. Which by the way is currently working as it was last year, with Welsh back in form. We were the most effective forward line in the whole league last season. Tiller was soundly beaten on the weekend, though that in itself is not the issue. Though it makes the timing of the idea invoked in this thread appear to be somewhat, erm, "odd".

Moreover, I would rather blood actual forward line players, eg. players kicking goals at Willy (preferably possible future power-forwards) up front instead of a utility, mid-size player like Tiller.

[comrade]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

Moreover, I would rather blood actual forward line players, eg. players kicking goals at Willy (preferably possible future power-forwards) up front instead of a utility, mid-size player like Tiller.

Who would you recommend, though?

Grant clearly needs to increase his fitness base to compete at the highest level, and he isn’t exactly bashing the door down at Willy with his performances either. He’s still at least another pre-season away before being a semi-regular Bulldogs player in my opinion.

Cordy has shown glimpses and has probably exceeded expectations as a 204cm bean pole but he is still probably 2 pre-seasons away from being a regular Bulldogs player – he’ll be worth the wait because he moves like Bobby Murphy but is taller than any key defender.

Liam Jones is still playing school footy.

Boumann is developing as a key defender, though I imagine he’ll play forward as the year progresses. I’m hopeful that he’ll one day play a role like Jarrad Waite or (dare I say it) Chris Tarrant – able to move back or forward dependent on match ups and perform well.

Roughead is currently playing Willy reserves, primarily as a ruckmen but also forward. He’s a fantastic tap ruckmen, with good hands and is improving his work around the ground. He won’t be our power forward, but he’ll be one of the best rucks going around - in a few years.

I guess what I’m getting at is we have tall talent coming through, but they’re all still so raw.

If one of our incumbent forwards goes down and we're in dire need, we’d be better off playing Tiller or Everitt up forward, who have bodies that are more developed and have proven at various times that they are capable at AFL level.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

I think most people underestimate Tiller. He would not simply be a clone of Welsh but could add another dimension up forward, particularly when things break down up forward, which unfortunately they will at some perhaps isolated stage this season. He's shown he's a good direct lead, and has confidently kicked goals on debut, and has learnt to add a defensive component to his game. He's the sort of guy who could bob up and kick 4-6 goals one day in a vital game (they're all vital from here on....)
My feeling is that Tiller is actually quite an important utility for the doggies, and should be tried forward again in some capacity to reinforce this, even if not permanently.
On another note: Brian Lake, if thrown forward in desperation would do nothing, but with the luxury of a settled tall back line would kick close to a 100 goals in a full season, IMO....

[Mofra]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

Tiller is not even a permanent fixture of our backline, let alone a candidate for a move into our forward line. Which by the way is currently working as it was last year, with Welsh back in form. We were the most effective forward line in the whole league last season. Tiller was soundly beaten on the weekend, though that in itself is not the issue. Though it makes the timing of the idea invoked in this thread appear to be somewhat, erm, "odd".

Moreover, I would rather blood actual forward line players, eg. players kicking goals at Willy (preferably possible future power-forwards) up front instead of a utility, mid-size player like Tiller.

So in effect, you're saying we shouldn't experiment with players currently earning a game of senior football, as we have developing talls that are a couple of years away from senior action, but they are being developed as talls at Willy?

Sorry, but a kid playing ok for Willy doesn't actually effect the scoreboard at senior level.

By the way, Tiller is the same height as Pav & Fev, and those "mid-sized" players seem to go ok.

As for the timing, Welsh is out for a week, so the timing is actually fantastic to discuss it as an issue.

[Mofra]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

At the moment perhaps, but Lake with pace, height and strength being one of the best contested marks in the league is what we are missing, if he could just adjust to playing there. I am not against giving Lake some time forward in dead time ahead of Tiller in an effort to make a forward out of him come finals

Lake appears to a classic case of a very good player who really only reacts to the game, which makes him a much, much better backman than a forward. Good forwards make multiple leads & demand the ball. Lake takes 3 jogging steps with one hand in the air.

I still prefer him as a backman, especially when he is probably in the top 3 full backs in the game this year.

[boydogs]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

Tiller is not even a permanent fixture of our backline, let alone a candidate for a move into our forward line. Which by the way is currently working as it was last year, with Welsh back in form. We were the most effective forward line in the whole league last season. Tiller was soundly beaten on the weekend, though that in itself is not the issue. Though it makes the timing of the idea invoked in this thread appear to be somewhat, erm, "odd".

Moreover, I would rather blood actual forward line players, eg. players kicking goals at Willy (preferably possible future power-forwards) up front instead of a utility, mid-size player like Tiller.

Good points. I would like to see us at least able to use him like the 'utility' you say he is rather than him being stuck at Williamstown when our backs are firing but the forwards could use him. We don't seem to have produced a player that could play both ends since Chris Grant retired. Every week there seem to be defenders in and out for each other whilst poor performing forwards are untouched, and I wonder whether our inflexibility is causing players in our best 22 to miss.

We have aging mid sized forward line players in Welsh, Aker and Johnno that Tiller may need to step in for as early as next season in addition to the KP sized players coming through.

The timing of the thread probably acknowledges Tiller's poor performance on the weekend and speculates whether this was caused by a poor matchup, and whether sending him forward would be the best option in place. I say maybe not this week with Hahn and Welsh firing, Aker and Johnno our best 2 the previous week and Murphy to come back in but if Tiller was a forward option there would at least be pressure on Josh Hill plus Johnno and Aker to have a better game this week.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

So in effect, you're saying we shouldn't experiment with players currently earning a game of senior football, as we have developing talls that are a couple of years away from senior action, but they are being developed as talls at Willy?

Sorry, but a kid playing ok for Willy doesn't actually effect the scoreboard at senior level.

By the way, Tiller is the same height as Pav & Fev, and those "mid-sized" players seem to go ok.

As for the timing, Welsh is out for a week, so the timing is actually fantastic to discuss it as an issue.

This is the reason why i won't go into a debate with people about this.

Comparing Tiller to Pavlich & Fevola, gee wiz.

[boydogs]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

This is the reason why i won't go into a debate with people about this.

Comparing Tiller to Pavlich & Fevola, gee wiz.

Only comparison made was in terms of height, in referring to a comment made about Tiller being mid-sized

[Twodogs]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

This is the reason why i won't go into a debate with people about this.

Comparing Tiller to Pavlich & Fevola, gee wiz.

Before you come out with all guns blazing it might be an idea to make sure you know what point you are trying to make.

The comparison is size. Tiller is the same size as Pav and Fev and that's the point being made, no-one mentioned relative ability. Tiller isnt a mid-sized anything-he's KP sized.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

Tiller's changed his game in the last 2 years, I don't think he looks a natural forward anymore.

A few years ago he was primarily a lead-up forward that lacked second efforts. He wasn't getting involved in the game enough but he showed good pace off the mark and his hands were OK at times. He was never labelled 'soft' but he needed to improve this area of his game.

He's a completely different player now. He's (obviously) switched to a backman and his strength is his appetite for the contest. Often gives second efforts and applies good pressure. He was fantastic in last years finals series because he was able to play on lesser experienced players/players his own size and create a contest. Against Geelong this was great - he brought the ball to the ground almost every time and from there we had the crumbers to pick up the ball and spot up targets.

His weaknesses clearly lie with his skills and reading of the play though. Too many times this year and prior to the Finals series last eyar, he turned the ball over - often under no pressure. He can struggle with his reading of the play/awareness at times too but if given a specific job to stick to a single player, can be OK. His match-up v Goodes was always going to be very difficult for him though. Goodes had him beat in every single area of the game before it started, he's a two time Brownlow medallist.

Still though, I think there could be a position in the side for Tiller and particularly IF Addison/Callan aren't playing well enough. At this stage, Addison is a long way back and Callan was poor against Geelong. He needs to tidy his disposal and not give his direct opponent space (See: EF Syd, PF Cats) to keep his position.

IMO to play as a forward you need to have polish, superior reading of the play and good skills. Unfortunately for Tiller I don't think he has any of the three and is better suited to playing as a backman/stopping his direct opponent.

[ledge]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

A few years ago he was primarily a lead-up forward that lacked second efforts. He wasn't getting involved in the game enough but he showed good pace off the mark and his hands were OK at times. He was never labelled 'soft' but he needed to improve this area of his game.

Now thats exactly what weaknesses were pointed out in Grants first game, so we throw him down back too?

[mighty_west]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

Before you come out with all guns blazing it might be an idea to make sure you know what point you are trying to make.

The comparison is size. Tiller is the same size as Pav and Fev and that's the point being made, no-one mentioned relative ability. Tiller isnt a mid-sized anything-he's KP sized.

I know your not comparing their talents, but i don't believe 191cm is a true key position size, but then, what is?, alot of midfielders these days are around the 190 cm.

Fev & Pav are more "power forwards" than true key position players, yes i know they do play key positions, so is debate either way, but one could say Brad Johnson & Russle Robertson are also power forwards without being key position players.

Then on the other end, you had players like Daniel Bandy, tall enough no doubt, but played more as a flanker than a key position player, just because Tiller is a decent height, doesn't mean he can play as a key position player, like with Everitt, whilst he's still developing, plays more as a flanker.

Confused?

[LostDoggy]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

Does Welsh and Lake being suspended this week change anyone's mind here?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Tiller as a forward?

A few years ago he was primarily a lead-up forward that lacked second efforts. He wasn't getting involved in the game enough but he showed good pace off the mark and his hands were OK at times. He was never labelled 'soft' but he needed to improve this area of his game.

Now thats exactly what weaknesses were pointed out in Grants first game, so we throw him down back too?

The undeniable difference between the two is that Grant is a natural talented forward with the instincts of where to lead/time his leap and has consistently strong hands out in front on the lead or in a pack situation. Tiller never took pack marks and was inconsistent out on the lead. Grant's second efforts are more to do with his fitness - he regularly gives them early but they die off as the match progresses. Grant's already a very clever player and only needs time so that he can impact games for longer.

There are certain similarities between the two but I think Grant has "forward" written all over him, whereas Tiller showed "bits and pieces" every now and again. I think Tiller is better when he's being led to the ball because he's a better spoiler than mark.

However, that's not to say Tiller should never be played up forward.