Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

[Desipura]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

Guys like Harbrow are like gold against the Saints. By this I mean players who run and take on the opposition which generally frees up a player further up the ground. I just hope Cooney can get that run and carry back into his game. Griffen is another who Im sure will take them on and hopefully get away.

[Mantis]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

I'd love to hear from the posters that went to that horrendous pre-season match against the Saints at Princes Park back in February - the infamous 'Anderson Ball' game as Sockeye described it. What did we learn about the Saints game style that day and what can we do to ensure we can take their best shots next time when the defensive heat is ramped up?

I was at that game with Sockeye that day and as we described at the time it was horrendous.

Our biggest problem that day was that we couldn't hit a target to save ourselves. The exact number escapes me, but from memory we made around 30 kicking errors. Yes it was windy and it was early in the pre-season, but our foot skills were woeful. With St.Kilda pressing as hard as they do they were all over us like a rash when we missed targets.

For the first 5 or 10 minutes we totally out played St.Kilda, but our good work wasn't seen on the scoreboard as we kicked 2.2 & one out on the full before the Saints had scored. If we had kicked straight I think we could have opened them up, but after that they closed the game down with severe flooding and we shot ourselves in the foot with our poor disposal.

Walking away from that game and not knowing how good St.Kilda were or have become I thought the way to beat them was that you have to be clean. If you miss targets they will hunt you down til they force a turn over and then back their key forwards in to take a grab after going long and direct to them. If they don't take a grab they know they will not be out marked so then they rely on their smalls to feed off the crumbs.

What are St Kilda's weak links, both personnel wise and game plan wise? I thought our uncontested disposal errors contributed as much to the loss in Round 6 as St Kilda's defensive pressure (especially late in the 1st half), and we got enough inside 50 entries that day to post a decent enough score. We had no Cooney, half a Murphy and a real lack of rebound and midfield run. Our defensive core were badly out of touch early in the season (Morris, Hargrave, Gilbee and Lake, as well as Addison) and our defensive unit is now flying by comparison (with Harbrow essentially having replaced Addison since then).

Personally I think their strength and possibly their weakness is one and the same, their bottom 6. When they play well it is because of the games of the like of Ray, McQualter, Eddy, etc.., but these guys can also be their downfall.

You know what you will get from the likes of Hayes, Riewoldt, Goddard, Dal Santo, Montagna, etc.. these guys are very good players so it is going to be very hard to close all of them down. We need to target their bottom 6 and apply as much pressure as we can onto them and also onto the players who will be receiving the ball from them.

For instance we cannot allow a player like Ray to pass the ball off to an unopposed team-mate as he will do this with ease, but if we apply pressure onto his intended target we know that his skills will let him down and then hopefully we can pounce.

It is not going to be easy, it never is against a team who is 16-0, but if we play a smart & clean game and apply constant pressure as mentioned I think we can give the Saints a big fright. We have more than enough attacking weapons to open St.Kilda up, I am just hopeful that they can play the type of game we need them to.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

I'd love to hear from the posters that went to that horrendous pre-season match against the Saints at Princes Park back in February - the infamous 'Anderson Ball' game as Sockeye described it. What did we learn about the Saints game style that day and what can we do to ensure we can take their best shots next time when the defensive heat is ramped up?

Absolutely nothing.

There was not one piece of play in that entire game that was in any way relevant to what will happen Sturday night.

Both teams had about 4 blokes behind the ball, it was windy and the skills were the worst I have ever seen in any game in my 35 years of watching footy.

[Bulldog4life]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

Absolutely nothing.

There was not one piece of play in that entire game that was in any way relevant to what will happen Sturday night.

Both teams had about 4 blokes behind the ball, it was windy and the skills were the worst I have ever seen in any game in my 35 years of watching footy.

I was there too. Below is how I summed it up at the time.

"There were some very worrying signs. No cohesion in the backline with the ball being passed back and forward then back again. With Gilbee off the ground we have no designated kicker of note. Our forward line was non existant and to only kick 5 goals was very poor. I thought that we were lucky to only lose by 26 points and in my opinion St.Kilda's form was average at best.

Our handballing all around the ground was atrocious. If you didn't know better you swear it was something completely new to team.

And I'm an optimistic supporter.

Overall a poor team effort. I would say 2 to 2.5 out of 10".

[boydogs]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

It is not going to be easy, it never is against a team who is 16-0, but if we play a smart & clean game and apply constant pressure as mentioned I think we can give the Saints a big fright. We have more than enough attacking weapons to open St.Kilda up, I am just hopeful that they can play the type of game we need them to.

I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. Against a side that applies intense defensive pressure to the immediate area surrounding the ball carrier the best way to overcome this is to quickly move the ball on to a contest where you will have more numbers around the ball than the opposition.

From our losses this season I don't think we have learnt that we should stop trying to handball when under pressure in a hopeless ambition to create space for a clean spotup, as this will simply allow the opposition to close in then swarm away in the other direction.

Everytime we lose people come out and say how badly we need a key forward, I think what we need is our midfielders to adjust to not having time and space and just kick it long to advantage. The second half against Essendon last Friday is the template for what we should do, the game against St Kilda earlier in the year is the template for what we should not do.

This explains why we play in bursts and fall behind early because we don't score enough when the opposition is playing tight early in games. We are well drilled and skilled in finding a target up forward with time and space but when we don't our midfielders don't show enough faith in our forwards to contest and lock the ball in.

It's as much about preventing turnovers in dangerous areas of the ground as it is about scoring ourselves. St Kilda will kill you if you turn the ball over at half forward, but if you go long to the goal mouth they are forced to be accountable and if they do win the ball, you have a much better chance at holding them up and winning the ball back when they bring the ball out.

It's only human nature to want to be cautious and take your time to dispose of the ball perfectly when you are outnumbered, but our players must keep in mind that less numbers in one area of the ground means more numbers in another, and not worry about being too clever or clean

[Mantis]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. Against a side that applies intense defensive pressure to the immediate area surrounding the ball carrier the best way to overcome this is to quickly move the ball on to a contest where you will have more numbers around the ball than the opposition.

From our losses this season I don't think we have learnt that we should stop trying to handball when under pressure in a hopeless ambition to create space for a clean spotup, as this will simply allow the opposition to close in then swarm away in the other direction.

Everytime we lose people come out and say how badly we need a key forward, I think what we need is our midfielders to adjust to not having time and space and just kick it long to advantage. The second half against Essendon last Friday is the template for what we should do, the game against St Kilda earlier in the year is the template for what we should not do.

This explains why we play in bursts and fall behind early because we don't score enough when the opposition is playing tight early in games. We are well drilled and skilled in finding a target up forward with time and space but when we don't our midfielders don't show enough faith in our forwards to contest and lock the ball in.

It's as much about preventing turnovers in dangerous areas of the ground as it is about scoring ourselves. St Kilda will kill you if you turn the ball over at half forward, but if you go long to the goal mouth they are forced to be accountable and if they do win the ball, you have a much better chance at holding them up and winning the ball back when they bring the ball out.

It's only human nature to want to be cautious and take your time to dispose of the ball perfectly when you are outnumbered, but our players must keep in mind that less numbers in one area of the ground means more numbers in another, and not worry about being too clever or clean

I am not sure where I said I didn't want us to use quick ball movement, which we rely on? Perhaps I should have phrased my post differently because I was alluding to the fact that we have to hit our lead up targets and kick the ball to our advantage at all times.

St.Kilda's defence is at it's best when it can group together to defend the high ball. Players such as Fisher, Gilbert, Blake and Goddard (when in defence) will continually zone off their opponents to create third men up if you go in long and direct. Personally I hope we try and seperate their defenders by leading up to the ball and if we have to push the ball wide into open space.

I understand that there will be a fine line between taking too long to move the ball on which will allow St.Kilda to drop numbers back and moving it on quickly, but I think hap-hazard ball movement and will play straight into St.Kilda's hands.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

[QUOTE=Sedat;99122]Cheers for all the nice words guys, but to be honest this site fosters an environment of serious football discussion - and there are several posters (you know who you are) who would possess more knowledge about the tactical side of football in their little finger than I would in my entire body, and whose contributions I hang on every word. There is no better forum than 'woof' to talk about what is specifically happening on the field of battle relevant to the Bulldogs, and I for one am very thankful for its existence.

Sedat, your preview of the match is awesome - thanks for your insights and thoughts on all the possible match-ups. I am continually gobsmacked at members analysis of other teams, and agree with you that this site has many members who possess incredible tactical knowledge about all aspects of football (you being one of them!). I know that I don't, as I sometimes get so caught up in watching my beloved dogs that I don't even notice the opposition players

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

I think you are looking at things from the wrong angle. Against a side that applies intense defensive pressure to the immediate area surrounding the ball carrier the best way to overcome this is to quickly move the ball on to a contest where you will have more numbers around the ball than the opposition.

From our losses this season I don't think we have learnt that we should stop trying to handball when under pressure in a hopeless ambition to create space for a clean spotup, as this will simply allow the opposition to close in then swarm away in the other direction.

Everytime we lose people come out and say how badly we need a key forward, I think what we need is our midfielders to adjust to not having time and space and just kick it long to advantage. The second half against Essendon last Friday is the template for what we should do, the game against St Kilda earlier in the year is the template for what we should not do.

This explains why we play in bursts and fall behind early because we don't score enough when the opposition is playing tight early in games. We are well drilled and skilled in finding a target up forward with time and space but when we don't our midfielders don't show enough faith in our forwards to contest and lock the ball in.

It's as much about preventing turnovers in dangerous areas of the ground as it is about scoring ourselves. St Kilda will kill you if you turn the ball over at half forward, but if you go long to the goal mouth they are forced to be accountable and if they do win the ball, you have a much better chance at holding them up and winning the ball back when they bring the ball out.

It's only human nature to want to be cautious and take your time to dispose of the ball perfectly when you are outnumbered, but our players must keep in mind that less numbers in one area of the ground means more numbers in another, and not worry about being too clever or clean

I couldn't disagree more.

Our only chance of breaking them down is to use handball to get though them.

If we go long their backline gets time to zone off and help each other out.


Handball, handball, handball. Organised chaos drawing them out of position and hit the bloke that gets free in the confusion.

[Bornadog]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

I couldn't disagree more.

Our only chance of breaking them down is to use handball to get though them.

If we go long their backline gets time to zone off and help each other out.


Handball, handball, handball. Organised chaos drawing them out of position and hit the bloke that gets free in the confusion.

and the only other way is very long accurate kicking into the forward 50, to get over the top, but that is more dangerous than the handball.

[Sedat]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

Hirdy's article on St Kilda in the Herald Sun today was a good read:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/thestars/index.php/heraldsun/comments/welcome_to_strangle_street/

Pretty much encapsulates what has made them such a tough team to break down this season compared to previous seasons.

[boydogs]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

I am not sure where I said I didn't want us to use quick ball movement, which we rely on? Perhaps I should have phrased my post differently because I was alluding to the fact that we have to hit our lead up targets and kick the ball to our advantage at all times.

I took your references to being smart and clean to mean taking more time and being more careful to ensure effective disposal - slowing down, waiting for a perfect option, trying to pierce their defense with perfect skills which is not realistic. Agree quick ball movement is the way to go

St.Kilda's defence is at it's best when it can group together to defend the high ball. Players such as Fisher, Gilbert, Blake and Goddard (when in defence) will continually zone off their opponents to create third men up if you go in long and direct. Personally I hope we try and seperate their defenders by leading up to the ball and if we have to push the ball wide into open space.

I understand that there will be a fine line between taking too long to move the ball on which will allow St.Kilda to drop numbers back and moving it on quickly, but I think hap-hazard ball movement and will play straight into St.Kilda's hands.

When St Kilda swarm around the ball carrier and his nearby outs, the opponents of the Saints players need to work hard to make themselves a target. If we continually allow more Saints than Bulldogs to be 'in play' within a 50m radius forward of the ball carrier we are asking for turnovers. We need to expose them when they peel off to guard space and outnumber us around the ball, and not be afraid to go long to 3 on 2's, or 1 on 1's where our player is beating his opponent.

I think working for each other and skills in close to release the free player from those 3 on 2 type contests could play a major part in whether we can beat their defense and score heavily

I couldn't disagree more.

Our only chance of breaking them down is to use handball to get though them.

If we go long their backline gets time to zone off and help each other out.


Handball, handball, handball. Organised chaos drawing them out of position and hit the bloke that gets free in the confusion.

Hirdy's article on St Kilda in the Herald Sun today was a good read:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/thestars/index.php/heraldsun/comments/welcome_to_strangle_street/

Pretty much encapsulates what has made them such a tough team to break down this season compared to previous seasons.

The Ablett example in that article supports my belief that St Kilda relish over use of the ball without penetration to move it down the field. Geelong's proven high possession game was overcome. St Kilda don't get drawn out of position and allow clean uncontested delivery to move the ball up the field - trying to play this way will result in turnovers too far up the ground to stop them delivering with time and space to their forwards.

Our midfielders and forwards to need to present, present and present - big games needed from Murphy, Hill and Johnno to help us move the ball from defense to attack

[Mantis]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

I took your references to being smart and clean to mean taking more time and being more careful to ensure effective disposal - slowing down, waiting for a perfect option, trying to pierce their defense with perfect skills which is not realistic. Agree quick ball movement is the way to go

In my mind being smart and clean is to yes, wait for the right option to appear and then having the ability to execute the pass. For this to occur we will need to protect the ball carrier by shepharding and blocking for him to allow him a little more time and for there to be constant movement upfield to create different options and uncertainty for St.Kilda in knowing where the ball will be heading.

If we play with a predictable pattern (long kicking to the same areas) St.Kilda will be able to break us down, but if we continue to play an unpredictable style we will certainly give the Saints something to think about.

[boydogs]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

I am not sure where I said I didn't want us to use quick ball movement, which we rely on?

In my mind being smart and clean is to yes, wait for the right option to appear and then having the ability to execute the pass. For this to occur we will need to protect the ball carrier by shepharding and blocking for him to allow him a little more time.

That's what I thought you meant. I just think sometimes the more you wait for a good target the less of them there are and you end up giving a hopsital handpass. I don't want us to be afraid to move it on quickly to our advantage, which we seem to be when it comes to the forwardline

If we play with a predictable pattern (long kicking to the same areas) St.Kilda will be able to break us down, but if we continue to play an unpredictable style we will certainly give the Saints something to think about.

The ultimate strength of our team is how even we are across the 22. Some sides if you keep their superstar quiet you are half way home but we have so many players who can stand up on any given day it makes it hard for the opposition to focus their efforts. We need to utilise this to full advantage - Murphy, Hill and Johnno leading up, Welsh, Hahn and Minson staying deep, Cooney, Griffen and Gilbee running past (yes I intentionally omitted the bald one there )

[Mantis]

Re: Round 17 Match Preview: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

For instance we cannot allow a player like Ray to pass the ball off to an unopposed team-mate as he will do this with ease, but if we apply pressure onto his intended target we know that his skills will let him down and then hopefully we can pounce.

I am not the self gloating type, really I'm not, but I think this statemant rang true tonight. After drinking myself sober I really cam't remember the number Ross Lyon quoted, but I think St.Kilda had something like 350m un-contested possessions in tonights game and he made mention that he was very happy the way his team could spread the ball tonight.

Our ability to man up tonight was very poor for large portions of the game.