I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

[LostDoggy]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

Using Cross as an example is a bit emotive for most supporters who love the players and would hate to see them go. Nicky Winmar going to us would have been emotional for Saints fans for example. A lot of supporters loved Nathan Brown and are still not over it.

Putting emotions aside I think that player movement is bound to be more prevalent in the coming years and us as supporters need to get use to it.

If a trade can be done to secure the pick/picks of players in this years draft we wish to secure then I would go for it. We don't just trade for better picks we actually target a pick that we think we need to secure the player we want in the draft. This is exceptable for me as if we have holes to plug then we need to plug them.

As far as the playing group goes I doubt they will be to upset about a player leaving. Sure players like Cross are more popular with us fans but a player like Ray could be just as popular with the playing group as Cross is and I did not see a mass up rise from him leaving and nor would I expect anything to happen from professional footballers. The NRL trade players every year with top players moving and it does not stop the players performing week in week out for there clubs.

For me the success of the Club comes first. Could not care who we trade as long as we improve our Club.

Just as an aside. How would you rate the players on our list in terms of draft picks. For example I would rate the following on our list. Taking into account potential and age.

Higgins - Two first round picks.
Gia - Early third round pick.
Reid - Second round plus Third round.

[The Coon Dog]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

For me the success of the Club comes first. Could not care who we trade as long as we improve our Club.

Don't disagree with you per se, just a bit cautious as if it isn't handled correctly it lingers, festers & ultimately destroys the fabric of the club.

I'm all for improving our list, but in a humane manner.

I understand players can be drafted & end up anywhere, but once you get them to your club you hope they will be loyal. As supporters we preach the value of loyalty to our players. Its a two way street.

[LostDoggy]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

As far as the playing group goes I doubt they will be to upset about a player leaving. Sure players like Cross are more popular with us fans but a player like Ray could be just as popular with the playing group as Cross is and I did not see a mass up rise from him leaving and nor would I expect anything to happen from professional footballers. The NRL trade players every year with top players moving and it does not stop the players performing week in week out for there clubs.

.

There is a fundamental difference between Ray, who left of his own accord or his Manager's in order to better himself and Cross who we are talking about discarding in favour of a lottery to replace him with a draft pick.

This doesn't even satisfy the theory of trading for need.

[LostDoggy]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

I'd want a draft pick or two and they would need to be decent.

I think thats where the argument breaks down a little. Unless we get another Richmond again, I doubt we will get good value for Cross in a trade.

Unless you have some examples (apart from Judd) of recent trades to prove otherwise I doubt we will get a good draft pick or two for a midfielder. Nobody in the football world doubts his tenacity and fitness but just about everyone knows his kicking isn't up to scratch.

[LostDoggy]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

Don't disagree with you per se, just a bit cautious as if it isn't handled correctly it lingers, festers & ultimately destroys the fabric of the club.

I'm all for improving our list, but in a humane manner.

I understand players can be drafted & end up anywhere, but once you get them to your club you hope they will be loyal. As supporters we preach the value of loyalty to our players. Its a two way street.

I hear what you saying. I just cannot for the life of me remember any player leaving and the players be so upset it caused the very fabric of the club to fall apart.

Even when plugger went to the Swans I believe the Saints moved on fairly quickly as a club. Maybe not the supporters but the club seemed to cope quite well.

[comrade]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

I'm going to have to disagree. Strongly.

High draft picks are no guarantee of a gun.
Put simply, would you trade Crossy for:

a. Jordan McMahon?
b. Sam Power?
c. Tim Walsh?

and to make things interesting:
d. Farren Ray?
e. Jarryd Grant?
f. Tom Williams?

These are some of our high picks from the last few years. I place Cross' contribution to the team above every one of these players
With the exception of Cooney & Higgins, Cross is ahead of all of our early picks over the past 10-15 years.

This is before you talk about the loyalty to player issues - fair enough to trade a bloke out of necessity because there is something on offer, but to rip out a member of the leadership group because of our opinion of trading currency doesn't strike me as a particularly effective way to built group morale, remembering that one of the principles of leadership is that "morale is a focrce-multiplier".

Mofra you make some good points, as always.

Champion Data statistics will tell you that there is a massive difference between first round picks and every other pick in the draft. This is probably stating the obvious but it also suggests that drafting is becoming more refined with each passing year.

The 2009 draft in particular is shallow – a large portion of 17 year olds are ineligible – to put that in perspective, about 30% of players drafted last year wouldn’t be eligible this year.

Like all drafts though, the value is at the top.

Mofra, you’re obviously not a fan of trading proven players for draft picks but we’ve never been in a position where the next 2/3/4 etc drafts are completely compromised, with access to most of the best kids essentially cut off.

Considering we only took 3 kids in a bumper draft last year (too light on IMO), we’re banking on our rookie recruiting manager to strike gold with a late first rounder and then with picks 30+, 45+, 60+. That’s a tough job in any year, but in 2009 there will be kids drafted who wouldn’t have got a look in, in previous years.

If our late first rounder doesn’t come on and the battlers we pick up with picks 45+ end up as uber-duds, we’re in trouble, with GC coming in.

By putting up a marquee name like Cross, and securing a top 10 draft pick, it gives the recruiting team an opportunity to get the absolute maximum value from this draft, help ride out the GC inclusion and flourish if we get it right.

And if drafting is too risky, we could also use the top 10 pick to snare a proven player to fill a deficiency on our list.

At the end of the day, we all love Crossy, but there are stormy times coming up for all clubs and fortune favours the brave.

Imagine if the kid we snare at pick 8 is the next Selwood or Rich (or we use the pick to snare a Pavlich or Roughead).

[LostDoggy]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

putting up a marquee name like Cross, and securing a top 10 draft pick, it gives the recruiting team an opportunity to get the absolute maximum value from this draft, help ride out the GC inclusion and flourish if we get it right.

And if drafting is too risky, we could also use the top 10 pick to snare a proven player to fill a deficiency on our list.

At the end of the day, we all love Crossy, but there are stormy times coming up for all clubs and fortune favours the brave.

Imagine if the kid we snare at pick 8 is the next Selwood or Rich (or we use the pick to snare a Pavlich or Roughead).

I'm not sure I can believe it possible that trading Cross will get us a top 10 pick. He might be worth in it our eyes but I doubt that in the eyes of one of 15 other clubs.

[comrade]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

I'm not sure I can believe it possible that trading Cross will get us a top 10 pick. He might be worth in it our eyes but I doubt that in the eyes of one of 15 other clubs.

You may be right, but without getting sucked into the BF habit of putting together far fetched trade packages, I’d suggest that adding our third rounder could get the job done.

What do you think?

[LostDoggy]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

You may be right, but without getting sucked into the BF habit of putting together far fetched trade packages, I’d suggest that adding our third rounder could get the job done.

What do you think?

Probably not.
They tend hang on to those first rounders unless its a good KP.

[LostDoggy]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

There is a fundamental difference between Ray, who left of his own accord or his Manager's in order to better himself and Cross who we are talking about discarding in favour of a lottery to replace him with a draft pick.

This doesn't even satisfy the theory of trading for need.

What your not taking into account is the fact that most clubs would not give us a high draft pick for probably 95% of our list. That is because they see the potential in those picks to be the next Buddy Franklin. While you point out its a lottery it works both ways. If a recruiter says to Eade this guy here is the next Franklin. Eade would then work out what we need to secure that guy. If the recruiter thinks he would go around 15 to 20 in the draft then we would need to get 14 or below to ensure we get this guy. What players we then have in surplus that could score this pick then would be put on the trade table. Then its all about how the other clubs value there picks V's whats on offer.

[LostDoggy]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

I'm trying to look up some trade history. Just quickly, at pick 34 the aker trade was a steal. Did want to leave and Brisbane didn't want him but his credentials were better than Cross now.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

I actually buggered up my OP because I left out one of the main reasons for writing it in first place.


We currently have Hargrave, Hahn & Gilbee born in '81 and Boyd, Morris, Lake, Gia and Murphy born in '82 (Cross was born in '83) so that's nearly half our best 22 that we will lose in quick succession. By trading out one now you are also reducing your vulnerability of a mass retirement by 1 player.

[comrade]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

I'm trying to look up some trade history. Just quickly, at pick 34 the aker trade was a steal. Did want to leave and Brisbane didn't want him but his credentials were better than Cross now.

Completely different though, ES.

Aker was on the nose across the industry and had nominated us as his preferred destination. We had Brisbane by the short and curlies.

Cross is in his prime as an AFL footballer, is under contract and is a B&F winner in a prelim year. I think he holds considerable value, particularly to a club that is in dire need of midfield grunt (Port Adelaide for example).

[LostDoggy]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

I'm trying to look up some trade history. Just quickly, at pick 34 the aker trade was a steal. Did want to leave and Brisbane didn't want him but his credentials were better than Cross now.

Age comes into the Aker trade. Also time out of football plus nagging hamstrings.

[comrade]

Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

I actually buggered up my OP because I left out one of the main reasons for writing it in first place.


We currently have Hargrave, Hahn & Gilbee born in '81 and Boyd, Morris, Lake, Gia and Murphy born in '82 (Cross was born in '83) so that's nearly half our best 22 that we will lose in quick succession. By trading out one now you are also reducing your vulnerability of a mass retirement by 1 player.

If we’re going trade crazy, I’d chuck Hahn’s name up as well for the exact reason you posted.