Are we the real deal?

[Bornadog]

Re: Are we the real deal?

I have always favoured a strong defence and that has been a big factor this year, as you rightly suggested. Higgins, Gia and Johnson do not exude a great deal of confidence up forward. Liam Jones could well be the X factor at centre half forward replacing Mitch Hahn. Grant isn't physically equipped to play just yet at centre half forward. Whilst Murphy has been great at half back we do miss his class up forward. Against the major finals contenders it would be too risky to contemplate playing Lake up forward for any length of time. Roughead gives us height as a marking forward when resting and provides an option to Barry Hall whose best work is done as a leading forward.

Gia has contributed 19 goals plus 18 assists (ranked 3rd in the AFL) as well as contributed 55 inside 50's. His delivery to players is outstanding, so you should have confidence in him.

I can't believe people are talking about Jones as an X factor. His impact in AFL is still a few years away.

[BulldogBelle]

Re: Are we the real deal?

I'll tell you who is not the real deal and that is poor old Collingwood. The footy gods have struck another blow this week with a curse on Collingwood's chance of winning the GF. And, as we are set the meet Collingwood in the GF well, there can only be one result.

It was Archangel Kevinnius Sheedyiticus who told Collingwood that they could not win the premiership flag because they had no stars. All of the Woods players heard it. Too late to get it out of their minds with a rebuttal. Its gone into their subconscious. Thus they are losers. They think they are losers and so they have already lost. (This is a well-known phrase from Losers 1:1.)

To strengthen this further an article has just come out by a minor saint questioning how such a bunch of low draft picks and mid-talent players can be so close to winning a premiership (or words like that). This is another kiss of death. Another statement telling them they are losers, to occupy their sub-conscious minds until GF day when it will realise itself.

Then there was the shimmy by Didak after his goal against Richmond. Very exciting for Collingwood fans but denigrating to Richmond. It follows that other clubs will not want to see that against them either. Its very bad Karma for Collingwood. A terrible, terrible sin to denigrate the opposition. Remember Judas Brown doing such a thing when he played for the Bulldogs, we lost every match where he denigrated the opposition. So it will happen to Collingwood, Karma will catch them and there is nothing they can do about it.

[Mofra]

Re: Are we the real deal?

I'll tell you who is not the real deal and that is poor old Collingwood. The footy gods have struck another blow this week with a curse on Collingwood's chance of winning the GF. And, as we are set the meet Collingwood in the GF well, there can only be one result.

We will meet the in round 1 of the finals and I am pretty confident this time around. They have maintained some very good form, we have improved markedly since our two meetings earlier this year and are a quicker side with the likes of Grant, Wood and Murphy in the side.

[Mofra]

Re: Are we the real deal?

The key to our side is flexibility. We're not going to find a quality small forward at this stage of the year, nor will Jones or Roughead be able to cement a position. What we do have is a number of players that can play a variety of positions. IMO the other top sides don't quite have the same luxury and are more 'settled', if that makes sense.

Cooney & Griffen have genuine burst pace, and can rest forward occasionally against teams that can be exposed by a quicker forwardline (ie Geelong). Gia, and Higgins regaining form, can pinch hit in the middle which will facilitate this into our normal rotations through the midfield so we don't lose too much drive.

[GVGjr]

Re: Are we the real deal?

I can't believe people are talking about Jones as an X factor. His impact in AFL is still a few years away.

Yes, I'd be stunned if he was in the side come finals (pleasantly stunned, of course). We do need to get some games into him but, like Grant last year, it may only be the one.

It's a pity we've lost so many of those close games this year because it doesn't leave us much breathing space. It'd be good to be loading up on training now and also resting some players but I don't know if we have that luxury with 4th spot still we'll and truly up for grabs. It'd be interesting to know how the club is managing that balance.

James Cumming has been getting stuck into Johnno, and I must say I expect this to be his last year, but Johnno does need to be given every opportunity to get right as I think his form could be the "x-factor" we are looking for.

[Mantis]

Re: Are we the real deal?

We will meet the in round 1 of the finals and I am pretty confident this time around. They have maintained some very good form, we have improved markedly since our two meetings earlier this year and are a quicker side with the likes of Grant, Wood and Murphy in the side.

Without Lake and Murphy playing forward I can't see us kicking enough goals against the Pies.

[The Underdog]

Re: Are we the real deal?

I'll tell you who is not the real deal and that is poor old Collingwood...

It was Archangel Kevinnius Sheedyiticus who told Collingwood that they could not win the premiership flag because they had no stars. All of the Woods players heard it. Too late to get it out of their minds with a rebuttal. Its gone into their subconscious. Thus they are losers. They think they are losers and so they have already lost. (This is a well-known phrase from Losers 1:1.)

I can't see how a team performing at their level and who are have clearly out worked us and beaten us on 2 occasions this year can be written off. They are a top 4 side with a strong midfield and a forward structure that has clearly troubled us in the past.

And if they're listening to anything Kevin Sheedy says these days then they'd be the only ones. He's as irrelevant as they come. A pure figurehead to try to drum up business in an AFL wasteland, he'll say anything to keep his name in the paper's. If you want to worry about a team's mental fragility in tight situation's, you might want to look a little closer to home. We have much to prove.

[Mofra]

Re: Are we the real deal?

Without Lake and Murphy playing forward I can't see us kicking enough goals against the Pies.

I think we will rotate players through the forwardline.
Hall, Johnson and Grant will play permanent forward - every other position can be taken by different players at different times.

[stefoid]

Re: Are we the real deal?

Not sure what part of finals against top 4 teams you missed, coincidentally they were the two out of that 5 that were his poorest. 11 games across 17 years is not a small sample, and his history shows 1 game of more than 20 possessions and 13 goals in total. He is a consistent top performer in H&A footy but fails to stand up when we've needed him most.

I didnt miss anything -- the size of the sample isnt relevant - its the context. Ancient history isnt relevent. Good on you for going back 17 years, but who cares? Dumping on him in the context of failing to kick bags in pressuized finals as a midget FF a couple years ago - also not fair and not relevent to the role he will play for us in the future.

If you want a fair and relevent comparison of his ability to perform in pressure games and finals, look at his recent performances in pressurized games and finals playing the role then that he will be playing now.

[Mantis]

Re: Are we the real deal?

I think we will rotate players through the forwardline.
Hall, Johnson and Grant will play permanent forward - every other position can be taken by different players at different times.

Not convinced on that Mof.

Playing the devil's advocate I would say that Hall will have a very hard time on Presti, Johnson who doesn't look to be the player he was just 9 months ago when he gave H.Shaw a touch up will struggle on any of their defenders and Grant will be challeneged physically by O'Brien or Maxwell.

The only time I thought we looked dangerous against Collingwood back in rd 11 was when Lake went forward and made a few of their 'zoners' accountable, but as previously posted our form & personnel has changed a bit since then so things will no doubt be different next time around.

There is much to look forward to and a fair bit to discuss and ponder in good time.

[Mofra]

Re: Are we the real deal?

Not convinced on that Mof.

Playing the devil's advocate I would say that Hall will have a very hard time on Presti, Johnson who doesn't look to be the player he was just 9 months ago when he gave H.Shaw a touch up will struggle on any of their defenders and Grant will be challeneged physically by O'Brien or Maxwell.

The only time I thought we looked dangerous against Collingwood back in rd 11 was when Lake went forward and made a few of their 'zoners' accountable, but as previously posted our form & personnel has changed a bit since then so things will no doubt be different next time around.

There is much to look forward to and a fair bit to discuss and ponder in good time.

I have to raise one point here: Nick Maxwell. Last two games he was on Hahn, ran off and (with Harry O) cut us to shreds on the rebound. It allowed their fast midfielders to play ahead of the ball to kill us on the turnover.
In round 1 we played Griff 20m behind the pack and that stopped their midfield breaks after qtr time, but the HB drive kept Collingwood in front of us.

If we rotate quicker players through we have more chance of locking the ball in the F50 in any disputed situation; Lake will drift forward when he can (especially if we have a fit Tommy; Morris has played on Cloke, Tommy takes Dawes) to mix it up provided he leads at the ball and doesn't do the half-hearted jog with one arm in the air he has done on occasion.

[Mantis]

Re: Are we the real deal?

If we rotate quicker players through we have more chance of locking the ball in the F50 in any disputed situation; Lake will drift forward when he can (especially if we have a fit Tommy; Morris has played on Cloke, Tommy takes Dawes) to mix it up provided he leads at the ball and doesn't do the half-hearted jog with one arm in the air he has done on occasion.

Cooney & Griffen?

I agree this would help, but we would severely lack their drive thru the midfield if/ when this happened, but if this move happened when these 2 were going to be rested we might be able to get away with it..... It's going to be a big juggling act isn't it?

I guess we can talk about this more when we are actually going to play the Pies, but it's all interesting stuff to discuss.

[Ozza]

Re: Are we the real deal?

wow!

I agree with most of it.

Eade has been tweaking the team the whole year. Murph and Wood to the backline is a big win, particularly Murph. Earlier in the year we were looking solid but stagnant back there, but Murph in particular is so creative and runs the lines and now we have harbrow, gilbee and murph back there running the ball out - they cant tag of all them.

The bonus there is that the extra creative player (murph) can release harbrow in bursts to the midfield where his bursts could potentially cut the opposition up. We should be giving him as much time in the middle as he/we can in the leadup to the finals.

And we can send Lake forward in bursts too when we are desperate for a goal.

I think the skills through the centre of the ground under pressure have also been lacking - tag griffen and he coughs it up. Cooney too has been burning a lot of his possessions. they are our game breakers and they both need to lift coming into the finals if we are to make the granny.

Agreed, we are still in the process of rejigging the forward line. Hall, Grant, Johno (if fit) and Gia are locks. Both Gias and Johnos experience at being in the right place at the right time is something we cant just replace by bringing in some kid.
Eade is giving Jones a run so obviously he is still shuffling the deckchairs in that regard also.

The bolded parts are both terriffic points. Nice one.

[Mofra]

Re: Are we the real deal?

Cooney & Griffen?

I agree this would help, but we would severely lack their drive thru the midfield if/ when this happened, but if this move happened when these 2 were going to be rested we might be able to get away with it..... It's going to be a big juggling act isn't it?

True, and the coaching staff will earn their bikkies coming up to this finals series - having these two out of the centre at the same time would require a juggling act with other postions ie I'd want it to be during Hudson's ruck time (excellent at winning contests after the bouce) and during a time when one of our better ball users has pushed up the ground a little too.

[Ozza]

Re: Are we the real deal?

Not sure what part of finals against top 4 teams you missed, coincidentally they were the two out of that 5 that were his poorest. 11 games across 17 years is not a small sample, and his history shows 1 game of more than 20 possessions and 13 goals in total. He is a consistent top performer in H&A footy but fails to stand up when we've needed him most.

I don't really agree at all that Johnson has failed to stand up in finals. Finals are tough games, opponents are better and raw stats are not always a great indication on how players go - particularly if you are exclusively looking at matches against top 4 teams - which you have done. The games tend to involve more contested possession and more often than not lower scores - so possession counts and goal tallies shouldn't be judged directly against H&A tallies.

Looking at Johno's record and remembering the matches - there are a few performances of note - and I'm sorry if they weren't ALL against top 4 sides - sometimes the sides were 5th or 6th etc - but they were all times we needed good performances; and the context of the teams performance is relevant.

- As an 18y.o kid Johnno kicked a couple against the Dees when we were beaten by 70-odd points.
- In 98 - he had 20 touches or over in both finals. Despite us getting thrashed in the prelim he had 20 and 2 goals.
- In 99 we lost both finals but Johnno had 27 possies v WCE and 23 and a goal v Brisbane.
and in 2000 when smashed by the Lions, he had 19.
In 2006 he had 25 possies and a goal in our first finals win for 8 years, and then kicked 3 of our teams 5 goals vs WCE.

In 2008 he played well against Geelong in the Prelim, 18 possies and a goal from deep forward, in 2009 he found a couple of goals against Geelong and then a couple more as an undersized target against St.Kilda's crowded backline.