What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

[Mofra]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Gia tries but just doesn't have the presence to pull it off, ditto Murph. Johnno used to be our guy.

Murphy was the vocal at huddles and seemed to be the most dangerous ball-user of the night, especially in the first half. Gia appeared to be our most dangerous forward and still found the ball. They are probably the only two leaders who who walk off with their heads even raised slightly.

[Greystache]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Double post- iPhone crashed

[Mofra]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Ridiculous call to drop Boyd. Its not as if we have alot of midfield replacements. He has had a very good season.
Trade Cross and you sell your soul, wont happen, should not happen. (I am aware of these 2 players limitations, but you need to focus on their strengths)

Boyd has enough credit in the bank to be given the opportunity to atone for one bad game. Cross' efforts in the wet the week before were a large part of why we won over in SA. The game at the SCG probably suits their style a little more so both get the chance to play to their strengths.

I commented during the game that I was watching Eagleton's last, Moles' disposal under pressure is woeful, Minson I'm more worried about now than at the start of the year, and our forwardline offered little in the way of defensive pressure (Jones aside) which was the beiggest worry of the night as this is the one aspect of our game we've been poor all year in (ranked 16th).

Wood's injury didn't help - hard to believe he has become such an important player to us in a short space of time, but he is to the backline what Grant has become to the forwardline - raw, quick and desperate to make a difference to the result of the game.

[Greystache]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Players can have a poor finals series, doesn't mean they didn't perform for the year? In reverse, so do you believe players can have a poor H&A and two good finals so they were great that year?

Yes it does. No, great finals = great year.

The H&A serves no purpose other than to set you up for the finals so you have a chance at winning a premiership. Play a good H&A season and a crap finals you've had a poor year, play a crap H&A season and a crap finals and you get moved on. Who gives a shit about your 8 goals in round 3 against a team that finished 14th when the team loses the prelim by 2 goals and you finish with 5 possessions.

Many bulldog supporters celebrate players who are consistent H&A performers and overlook the fact they fail to deliver when it matters most, you clearly fit in this group. The true champions of our game are the ones who lift for the big occasion, they're the one's that have premiership medallions in their trophy rooms. I'm not happy to celebrate mediocrity and won't celebrate players that do.

[Ozza]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

The fish rots from the head and all that. When Geelong, St.Kilda or Collingwood are down against the good sides, there are a few certainties: Ablett Jr, Scarlett, Selwood, and Bartel will show up for the Cats, Lenny Hayes, St. Nick and Goddard will show up for the Saints, and Dane Swan, Didak and Maxwell will show up for the Pies. They may still end up losing, but these guys will stand up and take a contested mark, grab the ball from the maul, throw themselves into tackle after tackle, launch themselves to smother kicks, force the ball over the line.

When these guys show up, even the mentally crappy, poop-in-your-pants, deer in the headlights type players like Farren Ray, Zac Dawson, Rapist Milne, Dale Thomas, Leon Davis, Travis Cloke, Cam Mooney, Tom Hawkins et al stand taller and play above themselves.

Let's stop bagging Eagle, Hargrave, Everitt, Moles, and all the other depth players on our list with clear deficiencies. They are who they are, and are often crap, but expecting them to do things they can't will only end in tears. Lyon knows that Farren can't kick in traffic, so he plans accordingly. He knows Zac can't play one-on-one, and plans accordingly.

What I'm more worried about, and has been raised by many others on this forum over the years, are our leaders. Where is our Lenny Hayes, our Dane Swan, our Jimmy Bartel? Guys who aren't just guns, but will stand up at crucial moments in a match and do the crazy 1-percenters and drag the team with them. Guys who will be quiet for half a game but then pull out 7 possies in 3 minutes when the game is on the line. Coons doesn't do that regularly enough in big games, Griff tries but hasn't quite gotten there yet, Boydy and Crossy think they're doing it but aren't really, Gia tries but just doesn't have the presence to pull it off, ditto Murph. Johnno used to be our guy.

Johnno used to be our guy.

--

ps. this is why I disliked the Aker saga so much, not because I give a crap about Aker, but because it just showed the mental fragility of our leadership. Teddy Whitten would have just taken Jason out the back for a little chat and that would have been the end of it -- when the big man spoke to you, you knew you had been spoken to. Instead, with our softly, softly type leaders, the saga dragged on and on and ended in a pissweak way. This lack of presence and inability to command respect off the field translates into a lack of influence on it. Maybe our leaders just aren't good enough (skillswise), but I think there is also an attitude factor.

In my opinion (for what it's worth), it all boils down to leadership (or the lack thereof).

Aker got out of hand at Brisbane too...do you think Voss, Jonno Brown and Simon Black have an inability to command respect also? Comparing today to Ted Whitten's era is absurd, most of what happened 'in the good old days' didn't involve dozens journalists and footy tv shows following every move off field, as well as the concept of an AFL club being a workplace - they're not comparable.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post. We lack a player (or two) to stand up and grab the game by the throat and shift the momentum back our way. And as you said - Johnno used to be our man. He won games for years. Chris Grant did too. This is where Cooney, Lake, Griffen and Murphy have to do the business - as they're our best players. I thought Gia and Morris lead the way on the weekend - and they played in the same way - to the same instruction - that they do every week. But in the finals we will need Cooney to be at his absolute best and the rest to follow.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Over the last month or so we have been building up towards a top 4 finish and I guess we have been building up our confidence of the playing group and the supporters.

My questions are around what will last night debacle do to our finals aspirations this year?

We can cut the side some slack because we had a few key players with injuries and we can also make some allowances for the flu that a number of players were carrying but how does the club manage to rebuild the side with the confidence and belief that they can win the flag and not necessarily just be there to make up the numbers?

A 2nd question is for our supporters, do you still rate us as a genuine flag chance and if so, what is the main trigger for that vote of confidence?

Our forward line simply isn't good enough to be a flag contender. Thank goodness for Barry Hall who has been our only consistently good forward. Gia has stepped up in recent weeks after a poor first half of the season. Johnson, Higgins, Hahn and Hill, on form simply do not rate. Grant apart from Hall has been our best forward. Jones like Roughead and Wood are the future but need more time to develop. It might be time to move Murphy back onto the forward line where his class would lift this division. Our back line and midfield have been the team's strengths. Compared to Geelong and Collingwood, we are a long way off the pace. The decision to hang on to Akermanis, Johnson, Eagleton and Hahn has proved costly and yet we probably have not had adequate relacements to take their places. The jury is still out on Moles and Everitt and dare I say it Higgins as well.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Our forward line simply isn't good enough to be a flag contender. Thank goodness for Barry Hall who has been our only consistently good forward. Gia has stepped up in recent weeks after a poor first half of the season. Johnson, Higgins, Hahn and Hill, on form simply do not rate. Grant apart from Hall has been our best forward. Jones like Roughead and Wood are the future but need more time to develop. It might be time to move Murphy back onto the forward line where his class would lift this division. Our back line and midfield have been the team's strengths. Compared to Geelong and Collingwood, we are a long way off the pace. The decision to hang on to Akermanis, Johnson, Eagleton and Hahn has proved costly and yet we probably have not had adequate relacements to take their places. The jury is still out on Moles and Everitt and dare I say it Higgins as well.

Agree with this post.

Murphy to the forward line is probably a correct call, too.

Especially against the better sides.

[Desipura]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Here is a useless stat.......which team lost to Hawthorn by 83 points in round 20 and then went on to win the grand final?

Collingwood 1990

[Murphy'sLore]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Here is a useless stat.......which team lost to Hawthorn by 83 points in round 20 and then went on to win the grand final?

Collingwood 1990

Straws. Clutching.

[1eyedog]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

I think we will be competitive come September. People talk about being fourth for a reason, but we lost a handful of games by under 10 points (Hawks by 3) this year, win two of those and we're a second placed team. Before Saturday night our average losing margin was 13 points, our winning was 45+ points, quarters won was on par with the top 3. When it comes down to it our record against the top 3 is poor but Geelong lost to Collingwood and St. Kilda this year too.

We are top 4 so in with a chance, under an open sky on a big ground in a finals atmosphere anything can happen.

St. Kilda are still untested against a top 4 team if you ask me, they have found form against Port and North over the past two weeks but does that mean anything?

Collingwood are capable of anything this finals series, including succumbing to pressure.

[mjp]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

I'm not happy to celebrate mediocrity and won't celebrate players that do.

I thought we accepted mediocrity rather than celebrated it.

Isn't that what we do as Bulldogs supporters?

If Boyd had a poor outing, then he had a poor outing. Given he is our reigning B&F - voted on by the MC - and has played in much the same style this year, I doubt he is going to be dropped.

Cross has been pretty reliable in big games and is unquestionably committed. I see little value in assigning him a defensive role - who exactly is he going to be able to keep up with? His strength is winning the contested footy and gut running to provide a midfield target...and he is the best tackler at the club. We do need him.

I am pretty happy with both of these players but can understand where you are coming from with your comments - but turning round 21 they are who they are and we are who we are. No point being unhappy with them - be unhappy with the MC for advocating their performances through continued selection and B&F votes.

With the other guys you mention:
- Shaggy has had a good past month and was good in the 2009 finals.
- Hahn kicked 3 in the infamous PF defeat last year.
- Johnson is an interesting case study and given his interrupted season I am not sure anyone really knows exactly where he is at.

[Greystache]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

I thought we accepted mediocrity rather than celebrated it.

Isn't that what we do as Bulldogs supporters?

If Boyd had a poor outing, then he had a poor outing. Given he is our reigning B&F - voted on by the MC - and has played in much the same style this year, I doubt he is going to be dropped.

Cross has been pretty reliable in big games and is unquestionably committed. I see little value in assigning him a defensive role - who exactly is he going to be able to keep up with? His strength is winning the contested footy and gut running to provide a midfield target...and he is the best tackler at the club. We do need him.

I am pretty happy with both of these players but can understand where you are coming from with your comments - but turning round 21 they are who they are and we are who we are. No point being unhappy with them - be unhappy with the MC for advocating their performances through continued selection and B&F votes.

With the other guys you mention:
- Shaggy has had a good past month and was good in the 2009 finals.
- Hahn kicked 3 in the infamous PF defeat last year.
- Johnson is an interesting case study and given his interrupted season I am not sure anyone really knows exactly where he is at.

The reasoned voice amongst the mayhem.

Round 21 probably is too late, the statement should've been made by the MC after the Collingwood loss. I know the match committee has addressed the issue before, after an unaccountable performance on Dane Swan Eade called him a wannabe rockstar who is believing his own press, but it hasn't changed much. St Kilda made the statement with Dal Santo and it paid off big time, but again that was at an earlier stage in the season.

I'd play Cross on Hannerbery, he's hot at the moment and it may help Cross remember how he made his mark at AFL level

I've been a big supporter of Hahn, he's looked off the pace this year but I did put him in my INS this week, he said on Friday it's the best he's felt since the NAB cup, and his form was good then. (btw he only kicked 2 in the PF but they were back to back at an important stage in the 2nd quarter)

I think Hargrave is surplus to needs when we have a full squad, and his skills under pressure are scary at times, that's just my view.

I think we know where Johno is in the scheme of modern day defensive football, it's just a matter of whether we want to admit it or not.

[Bornadog]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Many bulldog supporters celebrate players who are consistent H&A performers and overlook the fact they fail to deliver when it matters most, you clearly fit in this group. The true champions of our game are the ones who lift for the big occasion, they're the one's that have premiership medallions in their trophy rooms. I'm not happy to celebrate mediocrity and won't celebrate players that do.

Mate you don't know me so don't make assumptions.

You bagged Hargrave and I showed you a stat that he played well in the prelim last year. Please don't post stuff that I am clearly this or that type of supporter.

As for true champions, well according to your statement, we haven't had one since 1954.

[LostDoggy]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

I agree with the theme of this thread in that it's time to make some big calls on players that don't stand up in big games for us.

This week is the week to make the St Kilda style statement in regards to team instructions and that is to drop Boyd, clearly he has gotten ahead of himself, and if he doesn't play to instruction next week at Willi he doesn't come back in. I would assign Cross a purely defensive role this week and tell him if he doesn't do it he'll be out next week. I'd drop Johnson for Grant, and when Wood is fit again I'd make the call on Hargrave. There's no point rolling on the way we are, it's going to finish like the past 2 season (lose the first final, get a consalation win over a low ranking team, then lose the prelim again).

At seasons end I'd look at trading Cross to a team looking for an inside midfielder like Carlton, preferably in exchange for one of their 3 crumbing forwards. Plus I'd call time on Johnson, Hahn, Hargrave.

Crossy may not be as suited playing indoors as opposed to outside so his worth will show in September when we can venture outdoors.

[AndrewP6]

Re: What does last night do to our finals aspirations?

Crossy may not be as suited playing indoors as opposed to outside so his worth will show in September when we can venture outdoors.

So we keep him on ice from March-August? (JOKING!)