Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

As you say some of the above also did not deliver when the pressure was on. With all due respect as they were great players for our club however I can recall Granty not wanting to kick for goal (not in finals)and the remaining players finals form was a bit up and down.
It is harsh but true that none of our great players will be remembered as great finals players which coincides with our lack of success.

Maybe thats why Malthouse likes to recruit players who have big games in their underage finals? Hopefully Wallis changes this and doesnt add to the list.

Im not sure but how many finals has Cooney played when hese fit?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

I agree with your sentment but we really were unlucky in the 2009 PF. When it was up for grabs, Akermanis was pinged for deliberate OOB that turned a neutral ball on the wing into a quick transition forward and a goal to Reiwoldt. Borderline call IMO and other more blatant ones weren't paid on the night against the Saints. Hudson was given a free kick against in a boundary throw-in when we were pressing forward late on, and the resultant free kick to St Kilda ended up with another goal to Reiwoldt (that might or might not have been touched). On the night, 6 of St Kilda's 9 goals were from frees - some were there some were not. The Lake decision was the first 100m off the ball decision of its kind (they are common place now) and it awoke the sleeping giant (not to mention gift St Kilda a soft goal in a low scoring game and some crucial momentum). It was a wretched decision then and it has not aged any better.

Aside from Gilbee's inexplicable shank (it was such a bad shank that I thought it was smothered at the time), I can't think of too many moments that we bottled it on the night (perhaps there was a little too many long bombs into forward 50 as the match wore on). Very harsh to label Gia's miss a straight forward chance - very tough shot around the corner under pressure on the left peg on a tough angle and from distance, that ended up missing by less than a foot. And probably the unluckiest thing that happened to us on the night was that Raph Clarke pulled a big game out of his arse - had he played to his normal output (like he did the following week), we probably win on the back of a couple of Clarke turnovers and no crucial interceptions from him.

I think your description would better fit the 2008 PF, a game that we performed well above outside expectations in but absolutely wasted a hatful of gilt-edged chances in the 2nd half that would have put us well and truly in the frame late on. Your description also neatly fits the 1997 PF. More often that not, we don't get over the line in tight matches due to lapses in concentration, missing key opportunities, etc... I would class the 2009 PF as an exception that otherwise proves your point.

Wasn't the Hargrave dropping the ball in that game as well? The one where he kicked it about 15m.

[Mantis]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

Wasn't the Hargrave dropping the ball in that game as well? The one where he kicked it about 15m.

Yep, it was right in front of me (I sound like that feral Crows supporter). The ump was blind-sided and didn't see that Hargrave had actually kicked the ball. The resultant bit of play that lead to Dal Santo's goal (their 1st) was shitful on our behalf.

[Mofra]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

We're not good enough....and won't be until we unearth a CHF who can stamp his authority on the game, a genuine inside outside on baller with elite disposal to replace either Cross or Boyd, and leadership in the middle that results in turning the tide and toughing it out when we start leaking easy goals against the very top sides. We were consistently beaten by the likes of Collingwood (3 times) last year. That should tell you something about where we are at.

Very few CHFs enhance their reputation in GFs though.
Carey averaged about 1 goal, Buddy had a quiet one, Riewoldt has battled but not been effectual, Brown has a little over a goal per GF as well.

Since the late 80s/early 90s, it has generally been the mids and small forwards that have been the key. We have the mids who have the ability, we just need more than one per game to stand up in the finals.

[Bornadog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

Grant, Johnson, Smith, Darcy, West, Cooney. Close- Lake, Libba, Murphy, Boyd, Wynd

Of the superstars I would say only West has played at a level in big finals equal to his H&A record, the others all routinely underperformed. Of the players I'd consider close to superstars (I've probably missed a few too), I'd only put Lake in the category of big final performer.

Griffen has been our best player in finals for the past three years.

[Mantis]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

Griffen has been our best player in finals for the past three years.

Which is why he is held in very high regard on here.

The rest?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

The theory that the great players are better finals players is, of course, bollocks.

The better players play at a higher level more often, that's why they are better players. It stands to reason that if you have more good days it's more likely that you will have a good day when it matters most.

Conversely, the more finals you play in, the more likely you will have both good and bad performances.


Was Brereton a superstar for kicking 8 goals against Essendon in 85 or a dud for letting Rhys-Jones own him while Rhys was winning his Norm Smith in 87?

Hint: Brereton was a superstar because he played more good games than bad ones over his whole career.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

Which is why he is held in very high regard on here.

The rest?

Adison, ward - granted, not superstars but they had solid finals series.

[Greystache]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

Griffen has been our best player in finals for the past three years.

Which is why is was responding to the post- other than Griffen who has enhanced their reputation in finals

What I do know is that none of our 'superstars' and influential players (with the notable exceptions of Griffen and Lake) have enhanced their reputations over time in finals, and some of them have had 11 chances to do so since 2006. I know it's harsh and I hate writing it, but it is very difficult to counter this argument.

[Go_Dogs]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

The theory that the great players are better finals players is, of course, bollocks.

I agree, kinda in that I think it's stupid that being a premiership player can suddenly enhance an average player to a new spectrum. However...

When we win the flag this year and Griffen, Cooney, Lake, Morris, Murphy, Higgins, Boyd, Cross etc all play great games, does that suddenly make them far superior players to what they were previously? Not sure it improves their actual skill, but perhaps it does give them greater confidence, experience etc. It certainly increases their 'greatness' in the media and opposition fans' eyes. We already know they're bloody good players, but once they bring us a flag we'll (probably) rate them higher because they managed to get the job done.

Conversely, would anyone here say Leon Davis is a superstar? Proven finals non-performer, but has been very effective in the H&A season. Do we think he's not a great player because of his terrible finals record? Probably.

[Topdog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

No we think Neon Leon is a downhill skier who goes missing when you have to work hard.

[Bornadog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

Which is why he is held in very high regard on here.

The rest?

The Rest - can't be bothered going through the rest as we failed to make the GF.