Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

[Bornadog]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

In both the 2009 & 2010 PF's Shaggy's kicking was atrocious.

His dodgy foot wouldn't have helped, but you need to dig a little deeper than to just rely on pure numbers.

Take another look and you will find that is an incorrect statement. I agree that was certainly the case versus Collingwood and yes he is known to sometimes bomb the ball long when under pressure, but if you have a close look at his performance in those three prelims you will change your mind.

Correction BOD, we are MEMBERS (in my case, every year since 1983).
If more of our senior players played well against quality opposition in big finals instead of freezing, we may have broken the premiership drought.

Sorry Members that bag two or three players with no justification.

[Greystache]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

So you don't rate his game versus The Saints last year. Sorry can't agree with you, have another look at the game and previous games a bit closer and take the whipping boy attitude away.

2010 Prelim 24 disposals (17 kicks and 7 handballs), 3 marks and 5 tackles in the Western Bulldogs' Preliminary Final 24-pt loss to St Kilda at the MCG.

2009 - similar stats - 25 disposals

2008 - Geelong prelim - 19 disposals, 5 marks 6 tackles.

Stats are great- if you're a statistician, or a newspaper reporter who only watched the highlights and want to decide who played well. Daniel Cross had 39 possesions in the 2008 Qualifying final, yet his output was negligible.

Both prelims were tight fought contests where goals were very difficult to come by and maintaining possesion a premium. Hargrave's blond bombing of the ball out of defence when not always under pressure hurt badly in a game where we were being beaten out of the middle in patches.

Bull - you and Greystache are typical supporters who see one mistake by players such as Gia and Shaggy and rate their whole game on it.

Nice generalisation- considering you have no idea how I form my opinions. My sweeping generalisation of you is that of a typical bulldog supporter who strives for mediocrity, easily forgets our failures, and remembers our wins (regardless of how small) with the accuracy of an elephant.

Personally I find mindless positivity just as tiresome as mindless negativity.

[Desipura]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Take another look and you will find that is an incorrect statement. I agree that was certainly the case versus Collingwood and yes he is known to sometimes bomb the ball long when under pressure, but if you have a close look at his performance in those three prelims you will change your mind.



Sorry Members that bag two or three players with no justification.

If you are going to pluck out stats, how about how the other 2 performed in the BIG finals.
You have to stop looking at things through rose coloured glasses. There is a reason we have only one premiership and why we continually fail on the big stage.
This year Im hoping the likes of Ward, Griffen & Cooney (have stepped up in big finals) can take us to granny and win the bloody thing.

[Mantis]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Take another look and you will find that is an incorrect statement. I agree that was certainly the case versus Collingwood and yes he is known to sometimes bomb the ball long when under pressure, but if you have a close look at his performance in those three prelims you will change your mind.

I have watched each of those prelims on a number of occassions and my opinions remain the same.

[Bornadog]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Stats are great- if you're a statistician, or a newspaper reporter who only watched the highlights and want to decide who played well. Daniel Cross had 39 possesions in the 2008 Qualifying final, yet his output was negligible.

Both prelims were tight fought contests where goals were very difficult to come by and maintaining possesion a premium. Hargrave's blond bombing of the ball out of defence when not always under pressure hurt badly in a game where we were being beaten out of the middle in patches.
.

Yep exactly what I said , a couple of bombs and you rate his whole game on that. I don't rely on just stats, Iw atch the full game and assess the player performance over the whole game.

Nice generalisation- considering you have no idea how I form my opinions. My sweeping generalisation of you is that of a typical bulldog supporter who strives for mediocrity, easily forgets our failures, and remembers our wins (regardless of how small) with the accuracy of an elephant.

Personally I find mindless positivity just as tiresome as mindless negativity.

Well you don't know me then do you

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Stats are great- if you're a statistician, or a newspaper reporter who only watched the highlights and want to decide who played well. Daniel Cross had 39 possesions in the 2008 Qualifying final, yet his output was negligible.

Both prelims were tight fought contests where goals were very difficult to come by and maintaining possesion a premium. Hargrave's blond bombing of the ball out of defence when not always under pressure hurt badly in a game where we were being beaten out of the middle in patches.



Nice generalisation- considering you have no idea how I form my opinions. My sweeping generalisation of you is that of a typical bulldog supporter who strives for mediocrity, easily forgets our failures, and remembers our wins (regardless of how small) with the accuracy of an elephant.

Personally I find mindless positivity just as tiresome as mindless negativity.

What's blond bombing Grestache? Is that like a blonde bombshell?
Come on guys, keep it on thread.

[Maddog37]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Everyone has a different view and rates different areas as more important than others. It is what makes our game great. Some love the hardness. Some love the skills and speed.

No one view is always correct as different games are won in different ways.

Respecting other peoples views is not always easy but a worthwhile pursuit in my humble opinion.

Also that final against swans last year I was amazed once again by cross' toughness and also impresses by gias hardness which I have not always appreciated.

It is amazing how much more you see when you take the emotion out of it.

[Bornadog]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

If you are going to pluck out stats, how about how the other 2 performed in the BIG finals.
You have to stop looking at things through rose coloured glasses. There is a reason we have only one premiership and why we continually fail on the big stage.
This year Im hoping the likes of Ward, Griffen & Cooney (have stepped up in big finals) can take us to granny and win the bloody thing.

Sorry can you remind what other two? Do you mean Gia and Gilbee?

By the way Desi, I am not happy about the performance of our team over the past 56 years at all; how can I be. God, next month I will be 55 and I haven't seen a Grand Final. I was 6 years old when we played in the last one.

My post is about members who bag the likes of Shaggy and Gia and from what I can see all due to one or two mistakes in a game. Some players are loved by supporters and can do no wrong. Example Harbrow, but do you know his kicking efficiency last year was 37%, a disgraceful stat.

[Greystache]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Yep exactly what I said , a couple of bombs and you rate his whole game on that. I don't rely on just stats, Iw atch the full game and assess the player performance over the whole game.

When one of your primary roles in the team is providing defensive rebound (we have manipulated the match ups to give him the weakest forward) and you're bombing wildly then you have played poorly. Too many of our supposed senior players have proven they cannot handle the additional pressure top teams apply in big finals, we will never win a premiership (or even beat a good team at our current rate) until that changes. Hargrave, along with Johnson, Eagleton, Gilbee, Gia, and until last year Murphy are all/were senior players and all have poor finals records. Cooney has also never lifted for a final but I excuse him at this stage because he's never had a decent run with injury.

Well you don't know me then do you

I'm talking about you as a supporter. You continually refer to our consolation finals win each year as proof certain players are proven finals players, you always exclude the fact they are poor against the actual contenders. You have spoken of the great pride you have in our 3 consecutive prelim finals, yet exclude the fact we're 0-6 against actual premiership contenders. That says to me you're happy with mediocrity- Just being there is good enough.

I don't want to accept that, and I don't want to accept players continually failing us when it matters most.

[Bornadog]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

I'm talking about you as a supporter. You continually refer to our consolation finals win each year as proof certain players are proven finals players, you always exclude the fact they are poor against the actual contenders. You have spoken of the great pride you have in our 3 consecutive prelim finals, yet exclude the fact we're 0-6 against actual premiership contenders. That says to me you're happy with mediocrity- Just being there is good enough.

I don't want to accept that, and I don't want to accept players continually failing us when it matters most.

Please don't post rubbish.

When do I continually talk about our three prelims with pride. Your the one that brings up players that play well during the season and you don't rate them unless they play well against the other top teams then they are no good. As far as I am concerned, other than Ryan Griffen, Cal Ward, Ryan Hargrave and Gilbee in one final (Qualifying v Geelong), no one else has played to the standard required, maybe Lake. Anyway, its got to be a team performance and we haven't had the team with no injuries and a little luck to be able to get into the GF.

Show me one post where I have pride in mediocrity? That is a crap statement.

[mjp]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

If making the prelim every year is accepting mediocrity then I accept it.

[Ozza]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Guys I think some unfair assumptions have been made going both ways. Probably best to leave it IMO as you're both good posters.

I'll enter in on Hargrave. I think he got to a stage where he became (at least close to) an A grade defender in 2008/09 - and probably fell away a fair bit last year. The defensive side of his game was still pretty strong but I think his disposal issues were syptomatic of two factors. One being the increased focus of all of the good sides on forward pressure - which made clearing defence so much harder. And secondly, (possibly due to our general lack of pace) I didn't think we spreaded and used the space very well last season - and this puts pressure on the bloke with the ball - pressure which Shaggy didn't deal with well at times.

[Greystache]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Please don't post rubbish.

When do I continually talk about our three prelims with pride. Your the one that brings up players that play well during the season and you don't rate them unless they play well against the other top teams then they are no good. As far as I am concerned, other than Ryan Griffen, Cal Ward, Ryan Hargrave and Gilbee in one final (Qualifying v Geelong), no one else has played to the standard required, maybe Lake. Anyway, its got to be a team performance and we haven't had the team with no injuries and a little luck to be able to get into the GF.

Show me one post where I have pride in mediocrity? That is a crap statement.

Talk about crap posting. If you think Gilbee and Hargrave have been two of our best players (and ahead of Lake) in BIG finals, then I'm not even going to reply to any of your posts on the subject. You must be scratching your head at our 0-6 record. FFS!!

[Bornadog]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Talk about crap posting. If you think Gilbee and Hargrave have been two of our best players (and ahead of Lake) in BIG finals, then I'm not even going to reply to any of your posts on the subject. You must be scratching your head at our 0-6 record. FFS!!

Can't you read, Gilbee played well in one final, and no they were not in any particluar order and Lake virtually lost us a spot in the GF with his stupid push of Riewoldt that changed the game. Last year Riewoldt kicked four on Lake after half time and thats what we lost by. Show me a game where Lake dominated in the finals agaisnt the so called non pretenders you talk about?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Tom Liberatore and Mitch Wallis push for Dogs' debut

Can't you read, Gilbee played well in one final, and no they were not in any particluar order and Lake virtually lost us the GF with his stupid push of Riewoldt that changed the game.

Lake didn't lose us anything. We would have lost by 5-10 goals if he didn't play.

Gilbee is the one that lost us the GF birth, finding a way to completely stuff up a soda with about 5 minutes left. I'll never forget that moment.