Round #2 Match Committee

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  • LostDoggy
    WOOF Member
    • Jan 2007
    • 8307

    Re: Round #2 Match Committee

    Originally posted by SlimPickens

    Well said, Jones has played what 10 games of senoir footy now. Perfect oppurtunity against Brisbane to get some confidence up.

    Jones must spend the season in the seniors.

    He has only played six games, he just turned twenty, and his first year at the club was spent playing school footy. His development for the long term must be a priority and he'll only learn about AFL football by playing in the seniors.

    Quality key position forwards don't grow on trees. That's why we've only been able to develop one of them in the past twenty one years (and he debuted in 1990).

    The dominant key forwards in the game today have significant experience:

    Brown - 201 games
    Riewoldt - 198 games
    Hall - 275 games
    Pavlich - 237 games
    Franklin - 121 games
    Roughead - 126 games
    Cloke - 125 games

    With the exception of Brown (who besides being a freak started with the best midfield in the AFL on his side and with other big bodies around him), the players listed above weren't match winners at the beginning of their careers. All of them played games much worse than Jones did against Essendon; but all were backed in by their clubs and given the time needed to develop because football clubs understand that key position forwards are the rarest and most valuable commodity in football.

    Even the young forwards in the league who hope to become the next generation of stars have at least five times the experience that Jones has.

    Jack Riewoldt was seen as Johnny Come Lately last year, but is in fact playing his 70th game this week. His performances in his first thirty games were hardly awe inspiring, but Richmond continued to play him.

    Tippett's played 65 games, Dawes has played 31, Hurley has played 30, Henderson has played 35, Hansen has played 51 and Gumbleton has played 22 (and he needs a lot more time which Essendon will give him). Patty Ryder is developing nicely; he's played 94 games so far.

    Once again, Jones has played in the seniors just six times.

    He has potential and the club genuinely believes that he can make it, so we have to give him every opportunity to develop. Jones' selection shouldn't be a week by week proposition; it should be a certainty unless he is injured or not obeying instruction or team rules.

    If we don't back Jones in (and Grant - who looks much better after his 22 games in the seniors so far) this year then we'll be missing our only opportunity of building a post-Hall forward line that will be ready when Barry retires.

    They simply have to play. If that costs us sometimes, then we simply have to wear it.

    Exactly the same argument can be made about playing Roughead this year. Not only is he a promising ruckman but he also shows good natural instincts when playing in the forward line (something Will Minson has never really shown in his one hundred plus games of footy so far).

    Playing him at every opportunity this year has two benefits: 1. His superior forward play to Minson would allow us to play both ruckman on the ground at the same time, which is crucial when rotating midfielders through the three man bench; 2. He needs regular senior football to develop so he can become our number one ruckman when Hudson retires.


    IN: Roughead

    KEEP: Jones

    Comment

    • Ghost Dog
      WOOF Member
      • May 2010
      • 9404

      Re: Round #2 Match Committee

      Originally posted by The Rocket
      Jones must spend the season in the seniors.

      He has only played six games, he just turned twenty, and his first year at the club was spent playing school footy. His development for the long term must be a priority and he'll only learn about AFL football by playing in the seniors.

      Quality key position forwards don't grow on trees. That's why we've only been able to develop one of them in the past twenty one years (and he debuted in 1990).

      The dominant key forwards in the game today have significant experience:

      Brown - 201 games
      Riewoldt - 198 games
      Hall - 275 games
      Pavlich - 237 games
      Franklin - 121 games
      Roughead - 126 games
      Cloke - 125 games

      With the exception of Brown (who besides being a freak started with the best midfield in the AFL on his side and with other big bodies around him), the players listed above weren't match winners at the beginning of their careers. All of them played games much worse than Jones did against Essendon; but all were backed in by their clubs and given the time needed to develop because football clubs understand that key position forwards are the rarest and most valuable commodity in football.

      Even the young forwards in the league who hope to become the next generation of stars have at least five times the experience that Jones has.

      Jack Riewoldt was seen as Johnny Come Lately last year, but is in fact playing his 70th game this week. His performances in his first thirty games were hardly awe inspiring, but Richmond continued to play him.

      Tippett's played 65 games, Dawes has played 31, Hurley has played 30, Henderson has played 35, Hansen has played 51 and Gumbleton has played 22 (and he needs a lot more time which Essendon will give him). Patty Ryder is developing nicely; he's played 94 games so far.

      Once again, Jones has played in the seniors just six times.

      He has potential and the club genuinely believes that he can make it, so we have to give him every opportunity to develop. Jones' selection shouldn't be a week by week proposition; it should be a certainty unless he is injured or not obeying instruction or team rules.

      If we don't back Jones in (and Grant - who looks much better after his 22 games in the seniors so far) this year then we'll be missing our only opportunity of building a post-Hall forward line that will be ready when Barry retires.

      They simply have to play. If that costs us sometimes, then we simply have to wear it.

      Exactly the same argument can be made about playing Roughead this year. Not only is he a promising ruckman but he also shows good natural instincts when playing in the forward line (something Will Minson has never really shown in his one hundred plus games of footy so far).

      Playing him at every opportunity this year has two benefits: 1. His superior forward play to Minson would allow us to play both ruckman on the ground at the same time, which is crucial when rotating midfielders through the three man bench; 2. He needs regular senior football to develop so he can become our number one ruckman when Hudson retires.


      IN: Roughead

      KEEP: Jones
      Excellent post. And 30 plus body goes down hill pretty fast. Less time than we think up our sleeves.
      You don't develop courage by being happy in your relationships every day. You develop it by surviving difficult times and challenging adversity. ― Epicurus

      Comment

      • mjp
        Bulldog Team of the Century
        • Jan 2007
        • 7363

        Re: Round #2 Match Committee

        Originally posted by Sockeye Salmon
        What if Hudson had got injured last week?

        If we play a second ruckman and a non-ruckman gets injured we are in exactly the same boat - down to the exact same 21.
        Sort of.

        Playing one ruckman is always a roll of the dice that you make to gain a strategic advantage (RUN). Against Essendon, I can only guess the MC figured we would be short of a runner or two and therefore made the one ruckman decision.

        Playing two ruckman you are taking not so much a safety first approach as a traditional approach. It has a lot of merit. But if you make one ruckman the sub, then you really aren't providing yourself much 'cover' for injury...which really is all the sub is good for. To me making a ruckman the sub is the worst of both worlds - you restrict your ability to run late in a game (because if you dont get an injury, in the middle of the third quarter the sub is really just another rotation)...at the same time, you dont have the 'traditional' benefit of being able to ensure a strong physical presence at all contested ball situations...the one ruckman will be forced to go without a break for long periods and his effectiveness will be limited.

        Essendon have the ruck thing nailed - two rucks who are athletic and versatile and, in the case of Ryder a legit option for both key back and key forward. Not too many other sides can boast of that kind of capability hence all the pinch hitting we have been seeing with the likes of Tom Williams.
        What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

        Comment

        • The Underdog
          Bulldog Team of the Century
          • Aug 2007
          • 6871

          Re: Round #2 Match Committee

          Originally posted by Sockeye Salmon
          I'm actually worried that Hudson and Hall might be this year's version of Johnson & Akermanis.
          I know Hall has missed criticism because he kicked a couple of goals and the ball didn't spend much time in our forward 50 but there were some worrying signs in his game.
          Park that car
          Drop that phone
          Sleep on the floor
          Dream about me

          Comment

          • SlimPickens
            Coaching Staff
            • Aug 2010
            • 2929

            Re: Round #2 Match Committee

            Originally posted by The Rocket
            Jones must spend the season in the seniors.

            He has only played six games, he just turned twenty, and his first year at the club was spent playing school footy. His development for the long term must be a priority and he'll only learn about AFL football by playing in the seniors.

            Quality key position forwards don't grow on trees. That's why we've only been able to develop one of them in the past twenty one years (and he debuted in 1990).

            The dominant key forwards in the game today have significant experience:

            Brown - 201 games
            Riewoldt - 198 games
            Hall - 275 games
            Pavlich - 237 games
            Franklin - 121 games
            Roughead - 126 games
            Cloke - 125 games

            With the exception of Brown (who besides being a freak started with the best midfield in the AFL on his side and with other big bodies around him), the players listed above weren't match winners at the beginning of their careers. All of them played games much worse than Jones did against Essendon; but all were backed in by their clubs and given the time needed to develop because football clubs understand that key position forwards are the rarest and most valuable commodity in football.

            Even the young forwards in the league who hope to become the next generation of stars have at least five times the experience that Jones has.

            Jack Riewoldt was seen as Johnny Come Lately last year, but is in fact playing his 70th game this week. His performances in his first thirty games were hardly awe inspiring, but Richmond continued to play him.

            Tippett's played 65 games, Dawes has played 31, Hurley has played 30, Henderson has played 35, Hansen has played 51 and Gumbleton has played 22 (and he needs a lot more time which Essendon will give him). Patty Ryder is developing nicely; he's played 94 games so far.

            Once again, Jones has played in the seniors just six times.

            He has potential and the club genuinely believes that he can make it, so we have to give him every opportunity to develop. Jones' selection shouldn't be a week by week proposition; it should be a certainty unless he is injured or not obeying instruction or team rules.

            If we don't back Jones in (and Grant - who looks much better after his 22 games in the seniors so far) this year then we'll be missing our only opportunity of building a post-Hall forward line that will be ready when Barry retires.

            They simply have to play. If that costs us sometimes, then we simply have to wear it.

            Exactly the same argument can be made about playing Roughead this year. Not only is he a promising ruckman but he also shows good natural instincts when playing in the forward line (something Will Minson has never really shown in his one hundred plus games of footy so far).

            Playing him at every opportunity this year has two benefits: 1. His superior forward play to Minson would allow us to play both ruckman on the ground at the same time, which is crucial when rotating midfielders through the three man bench; 2. He needs regular senior football to develop so he can become our number one ruckman when Hudson retires.


            IN: Roughead

            KEEP: Jones

            ^^This.

            Fantastic post although at the momnet Will is in front of Roughy in terms of preparation and form. I agree with your sentiment though.
            "Loves a scrap....oh yeah & he's a pretty handy footballer as well"

            Comment

            • Ozza
              Bulldog Team of the Century
              • Mar 2008
              • 6401

              Re: Round #2 Match Committee

              My concern is the balance. If we bring in a second ruckman, and they have to spend time forward - suddenly we have Hall, Jones and Minson - as well as Grant as a third tall - and Gia and Higgins without much pace.

              For mine its a balance issue first and foremost - not just a "'Jones had a shocker, out he goes".

              I'm all for playing Jones and getting games into him - but only if the balance of the senior side is right.

              Comment

              • Sockeye Salmon
                Bulldog Team of the Century
                • Jan 2007
                • 6365

                Re: Round #2 Match Committee

                Originally posted by mjp
                Sort of.

                Playing one ruckman is always a roll of the dice that you make to gain a strategic advantage (RUN). Against Essendon, I can only guess the MC figured we would be short of a runner or two and therefore made the one ruckman decision.

                Playing two ruckman you are taking not so much a safety first approach as a traditional approach. It has a lot of merit. But if you make one ruckman the sub, then you really aren't providing yourself much 'cover' for injury...which really is all the sub is good for. To me making a ruckman the sub is the worst of both worlds - you restrict your ability to run late in a game (because if you dont get an injury, in the middle of the third quarter the sub is really just another rotation)...at the same time, you dont have the 'traditional' benefit of being able to ensure a strong physical presence at all contested ball situations...the one ruckman will be forced to go without a break for long periods and his effectiveness will be limited.

                Essendon have the ruck thing nailed - two rucks who are athletic and versatile and, in the case of Ryder a legit option for both key back and key forward. Not too many other sides can boast of that kind of capability hence all the pinch hitting we have been seeing with the likes of Tom Williams.
                We wouldn't be missing out on the extra runner because he'll be available for the rotations from the start.

                We restricted our running ability on the weekend because we couldn't use Sherman in the first half and Djurkerra was sitting on the pine in the 2nd.

                Comment

                • Mofra
                  Hall of Fame
                  • Dec 2006
                  • 14946

                  Re: Round #2 Match Committee

                  Originally posted by Sockeye Salmon
                  We wouldn't be missing out on the extra runner because he'll be available for the rotations from the start.

                  We restricted our running ability on the weekend because we couldn't use Sherman in the first half and Djurkerra was sitting on the pine in the 2nd.
                  That begs an interesting question - was the ruck aspect the only one we got wrong, or did we err by not having a sub flexible enough to play multiple positions?
                  Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

                  Comment

                  • LongWait
                    WOOF Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 936

                    Re: Round #2 Match Committee

                    Originally posted by Ozza
                    My concern is the balance. If we bring in a second ruckman, and they have to spend time forward - suddenly we have Hall, Jones and Minson - as well as Grant as a third tall - and Gia and Higgins without much pace.

                    For mine its a balance issue first and foremost - not just a "'Jones had a shocker, out he goes".

                    I'm all for playing Jones and getting games into him - but only if the balance of the senior side is right.
                    It will be a shame if Jones' development is hindered because we have too many slow midfielders and forwards. Perhaps we should be looking to rectify that problem first?

                    Grant does not play as a power forward and is lightening quick, so I'm not sure what you are getting at by naming him as a part of a too tall, too slow forward line?

                    Comment

                    • Mantis
                      Hall of Fame
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 15445

                      Re: Round #2 Match Committee

                      Originally posted by LongWait
                      It will be a shame if Jones' development is hindered because we have too many slow midfielders and forwards. Perhaps we should be looking to rectify that problem first??
                      But it's much easier to drop a kid who struggled on the weekend and has played 6 games than drop any one of the slow mids/ forwards who are almost like part of the furniture.

                      Comment

                      • LongWait
                        WOOF Member
                        • Sep 2009
                        • 936

                        Re: Round #2 Match Committee

                        Originally posted by Mantis
                        But it's much easier to drop a kid who struggled on the weekend and has played 6 games than drop any one of the slow mids/ forwards who are almost like part of the furniture.
                        Too true.

                        Comment

                        • Sockeye Salmon
                          Bulldog Team of the Century
                          • Jan 2007
                          • 6365

                          Re: Round #2 Match Committee

                          Originally posted by LongWait
                          It will be a shame if Jones' development is hindered because we have too many slow midfielders and forwards. Perhaps we should be looking to rectify that problem first?

                          Grant does not play as a power forward and is lightening quick, so I'm not sure what you are getting at by naming him as a part of a too tall, too slow forward line?
                          Grant can run fast but he plays tall. No matter how fast he runs he doesn't help us when the ball hits the ground if he's the one going up for the mark.

                          Comment

                          • jazzadogs
                            Bulldog Team of the Century
                            • Oct 2008
                            • 5642

                            Re: Round #2 Match Committee

                            Could we use Gia as the sub? Start with Hudson, Minson, Hall, Jones, Williams and Lake as talls, Addison as a defensive forward.

                            Aim would be to sub off one of the talls around half time, letting Gia come one. Players fatigued heavily in the games on the weekend, and Gia would find it easier to keep up if he only had to compete with them when they were fatigued.

                            If one of the ruckmen gets injured, we can revert to the Williams as back-up plan.

                            If Jones/Hall gets injured, Minson will be more valuable in the forward half.

                            If Williams/Lake/Markovic get injured, we wouldn't realistically be able to cover them no matter who our sub was.

                            If a mid-sized defender gets injured, DFA can move into defence and Gia into the forward line.

                            And Gia can obviously cover for any deficiency in the midfield/small forward.

                            I highly doubt that Gia would be used as the sub, but I think a player of his type is the best option. A slightly older player, doesn't need to be super speedy, but has the smarts to exploit players who have already played a half or more.

                            Comment

                            • Sockeye Salmon
                              Bulldog Team of the Century
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 6365

                              Re: Round #2 Match Committee

                              Eade has said he wouldn't leave the same player as a sub too many times because they would lose match fitness so it's likely that a lot of players will have a go at some point.

                              Comment

                              • mjp
                                Bulldog Team of the Century
                                • Jan 2007
                                • 7363

                                Re: Round #2 Match Committee

                                Originally posted by Sockeye Salmon
                                We wouldn't be missing out on the extra runner because he'll be available for the rotations from the start.

                                We restricted our running ability on the weekend because we couldn't use Sherman in the first half and Djurkerra was sitting on the pine in the 2nd.
                                But had the sub been a ruckman, why would we have been better off?

                                First half, 3 runners on the bench + ruckman sub as opposed to last week when we had 3 runners + runner sub.

                                But had Djurkerra been injured, the status quo would have been retained (3 runners on the bench) whereas with a ruckman as sub we would have ended up with just two runners on the bench plus a ruckman.

                                I don't really disagree with what you are saying but it is a bit of a philosophical view on the sub. I see him primarily as injury cover and therefore want as flexible a player as possible - hence I have been suggesting we play Hill in that role because he can play back/mid/forward as required...if sub is Minson and we cop an injury to anyone EXCEPT Hudson, that is bad news for our gamestyle.
                                What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

                                Comment

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