Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

[Bornadog]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

At a quick count only 4 or 5 of this middle group are in our best 22 which isn't a good thing.

Of those a couple still aren't playing the type of footy we expect/ hope they can play.

This group needs to step up. We are going to need the 21 and 22 year olds to help out as well.

[Maddog37]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

Right at this point I think Gia and Higgins are problems more so than Cross. Both are too slow and offer no defense.

Gilbee and Shaggy will need an Indian summer to impact but I feel that with the right preseason they could be good contributors.

I have come 360 degrees on Stack and Addison which surprises me. Reid also I am not sure about.

[GVGjr]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

What do you suggest that we do with Boyd; Cross; Giansiracusa; Gilbee and Hargrave? What duration should their contracts be and which of them do you see as in our best 22 in 2012, 2013 and 2014?

Boyd to receive a 3 year deal. Cross and Gia a 2 year deal although Gia's should have a discount in the 2nd year. All 3 should be in our best 22 next year with question marks on Gia and maybe Cross in 2013.

I believe Hargrave and Gilbee have another year to go on their existing contracts which isn't helpful. Maybe something can be worked out there allowing Lake to be moved onto the veterans list.

[1eyedog]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

True enough.
Pace is the real issue

Minson, Will - slow
Cooney, Adam - slowing
Moles, Brodie - medium
Williams, Tom - slow
Griffen, Ryan - quick
Picken, Liam - medium
Markovic, Lukas - slow
Sherman, Justin - quick
Barlow, Ed - medium
Addison, Dylan - slow
Higgins, Shaun - slow
Stack, Brennan - quick
Djerrkura, Nathan - quick ( I think )
Hill, Josh - when he feels like it - medium
Mulligan, James - no idea -
Skinner, Zephaniah - no tank as of yet
Grant, Jarrad - when he feels like it - quick

so there you have it. Our core group is just a bit on the slow side.

Out of your list only Higgins and Addison are slower than they should be and Williams and Grant are quicker than they should be. Based on this, we have some pace across the ground. Bit harsh on Picken. If he was a test bowler he would be considered fast-medium. Didn't he go okay in the 2008 Grand Final sprint?

[1eyedog]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

Right at this point I think Gia and Higgins are problems more so than Cross.

Agreed, Higgins is a real worry as he is turning into a liability in the modern game.

[LongWait]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

Boyd to receive a 3 year deal. Cross and Gia a 2 year deal although Gia's should have a discount in the 2nd year. All 3 should be in our best 22 next year with question marks on Gia and maybe Cross in 2013.

I believe Hargrave and Gilbee have another year to go on their existing contracts which isn't helpful. Maybe something can be worked out there allowing Lake to be moved onto the veterans list.

I really hope that the club resists the temptation to stick with what has failed.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

I really hope that the club resists the temptation to stick with what has failed.

They've also been the nucleus of an almost premiership side

IMO the club needs to resist the temptation to scapegoat our own. And if you are looking for another cliche we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Clearly, we haven't been good enough this year. We need to figure out why and put in place a plan to improve. Rightly or wrongly, part of that has been done and a new coach will be joining us.

The senior core of the team are invaluable in teaching the youngsters how to play. I would not favour going down the Port Adelaide route where our senior players have very little impact. There is no doubt Boyd, Cross, Lake, Gia should be expected to be strong contributors in 2012.

However, I would like to see whoever comes in to coach keep the senior core under far more pressure to perform. For instance the way Clarkson does with Sewell etc. Sewell doesn't always play well, but he generally plays with hunger and intensity. If our senior players can't do that then they should play VFL until the can find that within themselves.

[Mantis]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

Boyd to receive a 3 year deal. Cross and Gia a 2 year deal although Gia's should have a discount in the 2nd year. All 3 should be in our best 22 next year with question marks on Gia and maybe Cross in 2013.

So why contract them for 2013?

If there are signs late next year that both Gia & Cross aren't in our plans moving forward we can simply get rid of them without having the 'already contracted' problem hanging over their hands.

If they are still going well we simply re-sign them for another year.

I believe Hargrave and Gilbee have another year to go on their existing contracts which isn't helpful. Maybe something can be worked out there allowing Lake to be moved onto the veterans list.

See above point.

[GVGjr]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

So why contract them for 2013?

If there are signs late next year that both Gia & Cross aren't in our plans moving forward we can simply get rid of them without having the 'already contracted' problem hanging over their hands.

I suppose the next question is why contract them at all?

I don't see an issue with Cross in 2012 and I think he will still be OK in 2013. If they structure the contract correctly it won't be a burden and since we are also losing Hudson and Hall we won't be top heavy for the older guys.
Giansiracusa has had a good season and I don't see the issue next season for him. 2013 is less likely to be a good one for him so we would need to look at a reduced 2nd year.

Just because we have both of them on the list doesn't mean we need to play them if their form doesn't measure up.

Ideally only one of Gilbee or Hargrave would still be on the list next season.

[AndrewP6]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

Ever so slightly off topic (well, it happened on game day!), I was interviewed pre-game by Channel 31, Footy Talkback. They told me it would be on Tuesday at 8pm. Hope I don't end up on the cutting room floor!

If anyone's interested, here's the link to my feature role on tonight's episode of "Footy Talkback".

http://www.footytalkback.com.au/

And by "feature role", I mean "About 20 seconds worth" To save you sitting through it, I'm on late in the piece, about 18 minutes in I think.

Damn I wish Sasha had interviewed me.

[Rocco Jones]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

But if some of our older players aren't going to help us improve why should we keep playing them?

Yep. Playing a side full of kids isn't healthy but there is no point playing guys just because they are older. Being old doesn't make you a leader, skills, knowledge and attributes do. The 3 main ones I can think of are:

- Voice: constructive comments on the ground, huddles, team meetings (Gia's fave). I think this one can be overrated if both of the next two are missing.
- Leading by example: This doesn't just mean being a kamikaze, it means doing little things like being accountable. Not just saying, but doing. The best kind of leadership in isolation.
- Physicality/big body: Not many Rising Star noms are KPs or inside mids. Sometimes you simple need big experienced bodies or you risk breaking kids. They take the hard roles and leave the easier ones for the kids

As much as I appreciate what the likes of Gilbee and Shaggy have done for the club, do they really 'save/help' kids? Shaggy perhaps with the role he can fill.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Game Day 2011 - R23 Western Bulldogs vs Hawthorn

Out of your list only Higgins and Addison are slower than they should be and Williams and Grant are quicker than they should be. Based on this, we have some pace across the ground. Bit harsh on Picken. If he was a test bowler he would be considered fast-medium. Didn't he go okay in the 2008 Grand Final sprint?

Need speed where it counts.
Williams may be fast but he's not a line breaker.
Picken plays a tagging role primarily. So that ties him up most of the time.
Grant is quick.
With Murphy getting on, we're going to def need more options for getting it out of our back half. Struggled with that this season.