Starting to get worried about our coach

[Redemption97]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

I know he's much loved and he's leading our votes, but I've been disappointed with Ryan Griffen's year. His efforts have flucuated from quarter to quarter let alone week to week. I understand he's getting heavily tagged each week and not having Cooney in the side hurts, but I watch him closely and some of Ryan's flaws 2-3 years ago are still apparent. Only now, it's worse, because we are relying on him more heavily.

Griff is obviously a good player and the least of our concerns, but he hasn't had a good season. His disposal particularly is ordinary and he sprays far too many shots at goal from spots he should nail them from.

There's a noticeable class difference between the game's elite and Griff from where I sit, which disappoints me, as on talent he should be right up there.

TBB I totally agree. Griff drifts in and out of games in bursts of brilliance and mixes that in with some really poor decisions and kicking when under pressure.

Cooney’s plight certainly puts him in the opposition’s gun and even when he breaks the tag on the burst he’s usually under so much pressure from the opposition closing that space that he sprays it. He’d be the first one opposition coaches would be looking to shut down to dismantle us in the midfield, as when he gets it in space (rare this season) he hurts with his ball use as he can be a beautiful kick… Boyd and co not so much.

I’m sure he’ll be all the better for our young midfielders taking that next step next season, helping him out some more and taking some of the focus off him. I just hope we can find Griff some highly skilled and pacey friends with our early picks in this coming draft to help him out and make it a little less predictable about who we’ll go to when Liber & co shovel it out of the contest. He gets a lot of hospital passes!

He is good and occasionally great but we just need some more class players in the side to take all of the attention off him. I think then he has a chance of being the player we want.

[Maddog37]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

I would not say weak; these are elite athletes we are talking about. However, I will name a name, ( with the caveat that I absolutely love the guy. )

Brian Lake has been an absolute warrior for us. 2011 was his Annus horribilis. He a was sold out in a filthy way by having his ability to play injured questioned and his name bandied about in a disrespectful way in the media. Had an absolutely dirty year. Now in 2012, not a game goes by that I take for granted he is in our team. I just love him.

I think he is only starting to get a sense of just how valuable he is to these young blokes. People with freakish natural ability sometimes take a while to adapt to a regime that demands they leave everything on the field. The gifted player always leaves a little in reserve for the freakish, so it doesn't come natural for them to walk like a turtle when they've been hares for the past 10 years. Shaun Higgins is another who has or was improving out of sight this season, with those one percenters.

Brian packed up shop a few times on Sunday. Hell I empathize! But he really needs to understand that to my mind, what he is able to teach these young blokes may end up being more important than any other football achievement he manages to get. A four quarter effort is what you demand from someone of his stature and payscale. That being said, I fully understand with the amount of ball going in, how hard it would be to maintain any sort of dignity.

The plodders, the Crosses, the Boyds, the Liam Pickens, the Dale Morrises. These kinds of blokes, not blessed with natural talents of the Judd or Franklin variety, carry the team. That's the kind of spirit Bmac wants to instill. Good on him. Others, take note!

Dale Morris is not a plodder. He is absolutely elite.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

Dale Morris is not a plodder. He is absolutely elite.

Of course he is! But came into the club the hard way. Plodder as in, keeps slogging. affectionately said!

[AndrewP6]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

Its all very well to say he is not up and dribble out the "cracking is bad mantra" that seems to have pervaded the cynics on this board, but what alternatives are there?

Probably none now, they had alternatives last September.

. I sincerely believe he has a plan and that this just phase 1. The club would be doing itself a major injustice if it pulled the plug on this early because it can't stomach the results.

Fair enough. I have no idea what his plan is.

This thread is born out of frustration of supporters. I understand that. There is a bigger picture though and if you go back to the facts I presented, then what is being done makes sense.

Agree to disagree then.

[mjp]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

The young players are being matched up with champions from other clubs.

This is designed to ACCELERATE their development.

They are being taught about positioning, concentration, tricks of the trade, fitness levels, how to block and negate.

These players are in the engine room and off half back. They are the likes of Smith, Libba and Wallis.

We have about 30 players on the list who have 3 years experience or less.

I am actually not really sure how any of this is different to what every single other club is doing? If you exclude those at the very top of the ladder, I think you will find a similar strategy in place in all clubs...Surround your young players with experienced heads but assign them key roles. The likes of Smith, Libba and Wallis are - after all - surrounded by Boyd, Cross, Griffen and Minson. Look at West Coast surrounding youngsters like Gaff, Shuey and Shepherd with Kerr, Priddis and Rosa. Youngsters like Darling with Lynch and Hams...youngsters like Brennan with Glass and McKenzie...all clubs go through a period of continual regeneration.

I do agree with have a very high number of inexperienced players - but we also have an experienced core who should be able to show the way a lot more effectively than they are. We are young, but it is not as if we are GWS - I would contend we are no more competitive than GWS are right now.

What Macca appears to be saying is that he is sacrificing the chance of winning by going back to the basics. Teach the kids how to play contested footy BEFORE their bodies are ready, so that when they are ready, they can influence a game for longer and with greater impact.

What this means is that when young players go away from the game plan (for they are surely carrying heavy work loads) we are split open. With patience, the players will be so much better when they have the bodies to go with it.

I get all of this - but what about ball movement? The players dont need a strong body to present a target to the kicker...or to at least look to move the ball quickly - or to be brave enough to give to the first option. Clay Smith can play contested footy pretty well - but he cannot kick. Are we going to see some focus on skill development to go with the contested ball mandate?

As for having the 'body' to do it, Lewis Jetta is a skinny weed, Nat Fyfe is a skinny weed...and on it goes. You don't need to have massive arms to win a contested footy or have a gameday impact.

As for being split open - it is happening at a farcical level at the moment and watching St Kilda chip the ball to unmarked team-mates inside forward 50m last weekend was embarrassing. This was not about anything more than effort, concentration and leadership yet somehow I am supposed to accept it because we are building up the bodies of the kids?

It means that playing slick outside footy comes second because we are not winning the inside ball in such a way as to allow it. It is clear that we need to recruit in this area. Macca has said as much. When you watch Hawthorn and the way they move the ball, the length of their kicks, the accuracy, the left footers……the contrast with us is so glaringly obvious. We simply don't have the players at the elite level who are quality ball users.

So - if we win even more inside ball it is going to turn around? Minson was destroying McEvoy at stoppages last week and we were winning the contests with ease...so it was ball use that was holding us back? I don't accept this. We have enough good kicks in our side to move the ball efficiently - what we dont have is anyone prepared to run to receive (by hand or foot) from behind the ball or anyone prepared to come hard at the kicker.

We need to recruit? No - we need to RUN so that the players we have now have someone to kick the ball too.

It also means that young players get knocked over and we lose our resolve. It's because there isn't enough experience in the side to carry the many youngsters on the learning curve. It's because we are at the back end of a long season. It's because we are trying to teach them but some are not capable of improving.

How much experience do you want?

Lake, Gilbee, Williams, Hargrave, Gia, Boyd, Griffen, Cross, Minson...Higgins for most of the year, Picken etc etc.

There is an experienced core there and we cannot keep blaming our capitulations purely on a lack of experience.

In essence, it is a logical and, hopefully, very rewarding plan.

Criticism of the coach is short sighted and looks at results and playing style rather than how best to accelerate the development of the youngsters at his disposal right now. Criticize him for that if you must, but I am very happy with the path we are taking.

I actually disagree that the plan is logical - in a lot of ways I feel we have thrown the baby out with the bath water in terms of trying to remake our side and our style of play. I will agree that the consistency of message we have been hearing all year indicates that we are following a plan...it had better be the right one though because we are certainly not exhibiting any on-field improvement at the moment.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

I know he's much loved and he's leading our votes, but I've been disappointed with Ryan Griffen's year. His efforts have flucuated from quarter to quarter let alone week to week. I understand he's getting heavily tagged each week and not having Cooney in the side hurts, but I watch him closely and some of Ryan's flaws 2-3 years ago are still apparent. Only now, it's worse, because we are relying on him more heavily.

Griff is obviously a good player and the least of our concerns, but he hasn't had a good season. His disposal particularly is ordinary and he sprays far too many shots at goal from spots he should nail them from.

There's a noticeable class difference between the game's elite and Griff from where I sit, which disappoints me, as on talent he should be right up there.

I feel very sad even having to respond to this post.
Ryan Griffen is an absolute blue ribbon champion.
Watching him play this year is like watching Black Caviar pulling carts in a coal mine.

We have no other players worth tagging, and other teams don't care if Boyd gets 60 possessions. But as soon as Griffen can even smell a possession he gets jumped on by not just a tagger, but a plethora of taggers.

Ryan Griffen is the least of our problems

[anfo27]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

Agree but geez he copes a hiding every week. The only player i have seen block for Griffen (and trust me i've looked for it) is Libba. He needs a chop out where possible and just isn't getting it.

Griff does need a chop out but does he work hard enough to beat tags? I don't think he does.

I remember going to the MCG about 15 or so years ago to watch us take on the Roos. I saw a kid wearing red, white & blue that day do something that i have never seen before or since. He was just starting to get noticed as a possible future star & was starting to get tagged.

On this day his tagger lined up on him on the wing & before the ball was bounced this kid took off sprinting around the square to lose his opponent. His opponent chased but this kid continued to sprint around the square until he nearly ran the entire perimeter of the square & once the ball was bounced he had at least 20m on his man. It wasn't the only time he did that for the day & it goes without saying he had himself a good afternoon.

It was a long time ago so I hope I have remembered it correctly & haven't put too much mayo on it. I'm sure there are other woofers on here who witnessed that.

I was just amazed how hard this kid was prepared to work to ensure he had influence in the game. This kid ended up being in our team of the century.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

How much experience do you want?

Lake, Gilbee, Williams, Hargrave, Gia, Boyd, Griffen, Cross, Minson...Higgins for most of the year, Picken etc etc.

There is an experienced core there and we cannot keep blaming our capitulations purely on a lack of experience.

I agree. The capitulations are not because of the young guys. We have in the current batch of senior players weak leaders. The angst we went through to determine who we should appoint as captain post Johnno was incredible. Its because Lake, Gilbee, Hargrave, Gia, Boyd, Cross, Morris - the senior guys in the team were just not capable of leading in the way Wally, Hawk, Wynd, Granty and Johnno were able to lead the team (apologies to Westy and Darcy here). They just aren't inspirational and are unable to set an example for the younger guys - Cooney, Griffin, Higgins to follow.

This malaise we are in has a lot to do with poor leadership. I am not saying for one instance that these guys are poor players, because they aren't, but if you held them up against Lenny Hayes; Luke Hodge; Stuey Maxwell; Bartel etc there is no comparison in leadership skills.

[Maddog37]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

Our spirit appears broken at the moment.

[Bornadog]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

Our spirit appears broken at the moment.

Whose fault is that?

[LostDoggy]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

Think we've all had a pretty good say on this thread and maybe we're starting to go round in circles.

[Dry Rot]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

I agree. The capitulations are not because of the young guys. We have in the current batch of senior players weak leaders. The angst we went through to determine who we should appoint as captain post Johnno was incredible. Its because Lake, Gilbee, Hargrave, Gia, Boyd, Cross, Morris - the senior guys in the team were just not capable of leading in the way Wally, Hawk, Wynd, Granty and Johnno were able to lead the team (apologies to Westy and Darcy here). They just aren't inspirational and are unable to set an example for the younger guys - Cooney, Griffin, Higgins to follow.

This malaise we are in has a lot to do with poor leadership. I am not saying for one instance that these guys are poor players, because they aren't, but if you held them up against Lenny Hayes; Luke Hodge; Stuey Maxwell; Bartel etc there is no comparison in leadership skills.

Saw a bit of the Swan's Paul Kelly up here at the SCG.

Inspirational player and captain. Saw so many games when the Swans were wilting and then Kelly stood up and made a statement and turned the game around.

Once they were well down against a North side (Carey et al) trying to make Sydney its second home, and Kelly just stood up, turned the game around and won the game in the dying minutes.

We need to need to draft a few of these, even if they aren't the tallest, quickest or most skilful.

And I would love to have a Hodge or two at the Dogs.

[jeemak]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

Saw a bit of the Swan's Paul Kelly up here at the SCG.

Inspirational player and captain. Saw so many games when the Swans were wilting and then Kelly stood up and made a statement and turned the game around.

Once they were well down against a North side (Carey et al) trying to make Sydney its second home, and Kelly just stood up, turned the game around and won the game in the dying minutes.

We need to need to draft a few of these, even if they aren't the tallest, quickest or most skilful.

And I would love to have a Hodge or two at the Dogs.

Agree that it would be nice to find a player like Paul Kelly in the coming drafts while we're struggling at the bottom of the ladder. But, players like him are hard to find. Only ever saw him a few times live.

As for Luke Hodge. I don't think many players in the league have received the free pass from criticism he has received in the media over recent years. He is an excellent and courageous player, though we'd be just as well served by finding a Brent Harvey (irrespective of his tendency towards diving a little while ago), a Scott Pendlebury, a Steve Johnson or any other elite player you could think of in years gone by.

We have one game breaker in the making in Dahlhaus, and a ready made one in Griffen, though all good players need some support and play better when there are players as equally capable around them. With that in mind we just need to find elite and committed talent and the rest will take care of itself.

[Topdog]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

We have no game breakers in our team because our team are not allowed to break forward

[Dry Rot]

Re: Starting to get worried about our coach

Agree that it would be nice to find a player like Paul Kelly in the coming drafts while we're struggling at the bottom of the ladder. But, players like him are hard to find. Only ever saw him a few times live.

As for Luke Hodge. I don't think many players in the league have received the free pass from criticism he has received in the media over recent years. He is an excellent and courageous player, though we'd be just as well served by finding a Brent Harvey (irrespective of his tendency towards diving a little while ago), a Scott Pendlebury, a Steve Johnson or any other elite player you could think of in years gone by.

We have one game breaker in the making in Dahlhaus, and a ready made one in Griffen, though all good players need some support and play better when there are players as equally capable around them. With that in mind we just need to find elite and committed talent and the rest will take care of itself.

The thing about Hodge (and Kelly before him) is that he usually delivers in big games eg the 2008 GF.

Sorry, Griff is not in this class. How many games when we're being hammered, has Griff said enough, I'm going to turn this around?