Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

[Before I Die]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Early on, I kept making mention of Rampe in my Williamstown reports. He's done okay with the Swans and I'm not sure why he didn't get a look in despite training with the club from time to time.

Rampe is on record as saying he didn't like living in Melbourne and didn't train well or commit himself on the field when he was at Williamstown. It was only when he went back home to Sydney that he pulled the finger out, raised the quality of his game and was subsequently drafted by Sydney. He wasn't a miss by our recruiting team.

[azabob]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Early on, I kept making mention of Rampe in my Williamstown reports. He's done okay with the Swans and I'm not sure why he didn't get a look in despite training with the club from time to time.

I was always impressed with Rampe, back in the day, even when he was slogging it out in the VFL reserves.

What role would Rampe play in our team yesterday and which player wouldn't have played?

[GVGjr]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

What role would Rampe play in our team yesterday and which player wouldn't have played?

HBF/BP, it might either mean we didn't need to chase Darley or it might free up Murphy for some more time up forward.

Either way it's a moot point as the Swans got more out of him than we could have.

[G-Mo77]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Rampe is on record as saying he didn't like living in Melbourne and didn't train well or commit himself on the field when he was at Williamstown. It was only when he went back home to Sydney that he pulled the finger out, raised the quality of his game and was subsequently drafted by Sydney. He wasn't a miss by our recruiting team.

There ya go. Thank Before I Die. Good to know we didn't miss there

[Remi Moses]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Jack Frost is one we let slip . He played in from of our noses and we didn't pick him up.

[G-Mo77]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Jack Frost is one we let slip . He played in from of our noses and we didn't pick him up.

We were interested but we got scared away by his injuries. I'm not fussed on Frost personally. Once Reid/Brown are back he won't play again this year unless there is another injury. Just a depth player, nothing more, nothing less.

[azabob]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

We were interested but we got scared away by his injuries. I'm not fussed on Frost personally. Once Reid/Brown are back he won't play again this year unless there is another injury. Just a depth player, nothing more, nothing less.

Agree, similar story to Peter Faulks.

[G-Mo77]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Agree, similar story to Peter Faulks.

I believe Faulks is back at Willy now.

[Guido]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

We were interested but we got scared away by his injuries. I'm not fussed on Frost personally. Once Reid/Brown are back he won't play again this year unless there is another injury. Just a depth player, nothing more, nothing less.

Really dodged a bullet by not going with the long term depth player with serious tools to exceed at the top level ... phew, lucky we went with blokes like Goodes and Lower instead.

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-04-02/young-magpie-aims-to-freeze-big-guns

Try not to throw up in the first ten seconds of the above video, but if that's what a depth player looks like in his 4th game, then I would happily have half a dozen of similar talent/athleticism on our list.

[azabob]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Really dodged a bullet by not going with the long term depth player with serious tools to exceed at the top level ... phew, lucky we went with blokes like Goodes and Lower instead.

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-04-02/young-magpie-aims-to-freeze-big-guns

Try not to throw up in the first ten seconds of the above video, but if that's what a depth player looks like in his 4th game, then I would happily have half a dozen of similar talent/athleticism on our list.

Isn't this Williams all those years ago

[Guido]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

There are two very distinct groups of recruiting being discussed here.

One, mature age state league recruits.

The percentage of success stories, and not only success stories, but the percentage of outstanding, truly A grade recruits picked up for a hundredth of their true value is simply amazing. In terms of bang for buck, IMO other than the rookie list in general, it is the smartest area of recruitment you can invest heavily (both in terms of scouting resources + draft picks) in.

Right off the bat, I reckon a gun mature age VFL player has a 50/50 shot of succeeding into a long term, premiership standard player. Some of them will become All Australian standard, or at the very least more than capable of playing a role in a premiership side; Morris, Boyd, Scott Thompson, Puopolo, Pods, Sam Mitchell, Barlow.

Howe, Mzungu, Pods, Puopolo, Rampe, Jack Frost - these are all players that we were either interested in or trained with us, so that tells you our recruiting department is right up there when identifying these players.

The criticism of investment in this subset of recruiting IMO only happens by people that don't have an understanding it or simply haven't run through the numbers. Anecdotally, there are quite a few AFL clubs that are still skeptical about investing in gun VFL/SANFL, which means more for the rest of us.

There are dozens of success stories, I could seriously come up with a solely mature age, state based recruited 22 that would give the top 4 a shake.

Now, try to do the same with a pool of the 1000+ players that have either been delisted or otherwise fringe players given away for a pick after 60 "with our blessing, wish him all the best", since the year 2000, and you'll come up with maybe half a dozen players that would be selected again in hindsight. And, unlike the state league recruits listed, other than the rare, rare exception (tend to have had a screw loose and the delisting was the kick in the arse they needed), very few of the delistees/fringe dwellers were really "instrumental" in a premiership run - had they not been there, it's likely player 23 would have stepped in and had similar success.

Why then, when the stats are so clear cut on the success of one and the failure of the other, we continue to invest in type like Lowers is beyond me.

Goodes is his own sub-category - a solid VFL player who's age profile was simply not a good fit for where the club was at. At 22-23, fine, get him fit and understanding the sacrifices required at AFL, give him a shot at developing in a professional environment, it at least has the scope to be really solid recruiting. At the age of 29 for a bottom four side with a already a couple too many 29-30 year olds on the list, IMO bordering on idiotic. And that completely discounts the opportunity cost given up in not using these types of picks to invest in young state league players available who could be big, long term contributors to the club.

[G-Mo77]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Really dodged a bullet by not going with the long term depth player with serious tools to exceed at the top level ... phew, lucky we went with blokes like Goodes and Lower instead.

http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-04-02/young-magpie-aims-to-freeze-big-guns

Try not to throw up in the first ten seconds of the above video, but if that's what a depth player looks like in his 4th game, then I would happily have half a dozen of similar talent/athleticism on our list.

Wow ease up on the sarcastic tone there Guido, there's really no need for it.

I was a big fan of Jack Frost while he was at Willy but I still stand behind what I said, he's a depth player. Good on him for making the most of those opportunities though. I hope he's good enough to "freeze" out Reid and Brown.

I've got no argument against anything else you write, you make some great points.

[stefoid]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Goodes is his own sub-category - a solid VFL player who's age profile was simply not a good fit for where the club was at. At 22-23, fine, get him fit and understanding the sacrifices required at AFL, give him a shot at developing in a professional environment, it at least has the scope to be really solid recruiting. At the age of 29 for a bottom four side with a already a couple too many 29-30 year olds on the list, IMO bordering on idiotic. And that completely discounts the opportunity cost given up in not using these types of picks to invest in young state league players available who could be big, long term contributors to the club.

Goodes (and Lower) were picked partly for culture I think. First couple of years, the coach was/is trying to install a 'train how you play' culture at the club. Plus more mature bodies and minds in very young list.

Mac publicly said we are past that stage now, and we are only looking for <25yo players.

[Guido]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Wow ease up on the sarcastic tone there Guido, there's really no need for it.

Sorry G-Mo, it was out of line, but borne more out of frustration with the club's thinking and decisions rather than aimed at your view.

The thing is that most of these VFL pick-ups are seen as good depth in the beginning ... until they keep developing, and developing and developing, until they're a Dale Morris among the top 5 players on your list or a Josh Gibson playing a key role in a premiership winning team.

If these mature aged players weren't simply seen as good depth at their time of recruitment and instead seen on what they were capable of achieving, Morris, Mitchell, Barlow, Boyd would have all went top 20.

Based on early form, IMO Frost could be end up on the same path and end up right up there. Or maybe not, but even if you're right and he amounts to not much, if there is one guarantee in recruitment, it is that there will be fantastic future players who will have been available at that rookie draft (and every rookie draft thereafter).

Which is why we need to give ourselves every chance to pick them up: if you take your chances well, financially, it is a great recruiting leveler. It gives you a chance to get top players for barely anything.

But instead of us being the team that outsmarted everyone, of using our competitive advantage of having this often injured but exciting prospect under our noses and picked up for less than he was worth, Collingwood does it. Collingwood! We're the ones that need to make the most of every break we can get, to get the most out of every cent, to not waste a single spot on the list to have a chance of competing, and instead we leave it wide open for the club with the $80mil turnover and $30mil footy department to be the moneyball recruiters.

The one chance we have, they take it, and have a kid recruited on a $50K rookie contract with a good 6-7 years ahead of him tearing a guy on a $9mil deal a new one. While we're the ones stuck with the 30 year old soon to be delisted.

We can't whinge about the wealth disparity when it comes to decision making like this.

[Guido]

Re: Did we waste Draft Picks by picking Rejects from other clubs?

Goodes (and Lower) were picked partly for culture I think. First couple of years, the coach was/is trying to install a 'train how you play' culture at the club.

Training culture! Full disclosure, I say this as someone quite "big boned" myself, but seriously, he's struggled to control his own weight let alone set a training standard for others. Lower added so much in this element that the club (100% correctly) delisted him 10 months after recruiting him.

Blokes like Daniel Cross and Matty Boyd were fine in setting culture. Griffen, Murphy, Morris can set training culture and standards. Blokes that have been delisted twice and others who taken until 28 "to find out what professionalism really means" aren't going to add much to the mix, and certainly no more than the tangible, real dividends of what picking up a good long term player with one of those picks will.

And even if there is an element of truth to the blokes being really good on the training track, seriously, how much does it add to the long term benefit of the club? It's as silly as suggesting that having had Morgan and Bassett training the house down in 2004 somehow added something to the 2008-2010 finals runs.

I've heard it for years and to be honest I've had enough of this intangible, long bow, secondary factor malarkey to justify failed recruits. We are a club who has neither the time nor the money to invest in these - every recruit should be seen with an eye to whether they can contribute to a premiership.

In finals in 2017 and 2018, we won't be thinking "gee, lucky Lower and Goodes - who never played in an AFL final - were there in 2013 to teach the boys what's required at training so we could reach this prelim", but it could very well be "gee, one of those 5 guns available in the 2013 rookie list we didn't even give ourselves a chance to recruit might have got us over the line today".

Tangible dividends (i.e. actual players) which have the scope to add to premiership campaigns, at a reasonable cost, should be the only recruiting goal this club has with every pick it uses at the draft or trades. Get it right, and they'll add to the "play the way you train" culture by default.