When you are no good...you are no good!

[MrMahatma]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

Do we think the Dogs need a turn around?

Obviously I’m hopeful (maybe confident?) we can take a big scalp in the next couple of weeks on our way to the finals and then reckon we need to win a final to feel on track. But we may also miss the finals. If we go flag, miss, miss, out week 1, miss, are we actually any better than prob 14 other teams?

The concept of “wasting the Bont era” is only one I’ve recently heard mentioned (or perhaps personally only recently the penny dropped), but it’s true he’s in his prime and we can’t keep having nothing years. Will we soon be waiting for J UH to develop like we are with English? And by then Libba, Wally etc will be retiring... and what left of the Bont years.

While we have regular green shoots, there’s a feeling of “jogging on the spot” over the past few years and I’m not sure that’s going to get us what we need.

Should we actually bring on a mature ruck to help English develop at training?
Should we bring in a senior leader or two to ensure training standards are high?
Is now, with the shake up of assistants across the league, the time to make some big calls in our coaching ranks?

[Mofra]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

I don't really want to make this thread about Bevo. I guess what I am trying to say is if you are no good then you need to find a catalyst for MASSIVE change. For us in 2014 it was trading our captain...tell me one other club that would be prepared to do that and suffer the membership/supporter backlash to try and spark change?? (Don't say GC who are another case altogether).

Hawthorn.... although they were ex-captains (Mitchell and Hodge) and not at their prime.
Different scenario to do so after a threepeat as well.

[Mofra]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

Do we think the Dogs need a turn around?

Obviously I’m hopeful (maybe confident?) we can take a big scalp in the next couple of weeks on our way to the finals and then reckon we need to win a final to feel on track. But we may also miss the finals. If we go flag, miss, miss, out week 1, miss, are we actually any better than prob 14 other teams?

The concept of “wasting the Bont era” is only one I’ve recently heard mentioned (or perhaps personally only recently the penny dropped), but it’s true he’s in his prime and we can’t keep having nothing years. Will we soon be waiting for J UH to develop like we are with English? And by then Libba, Wally etc will be retiring... and what left of the Bont years.

While we have regular green shoots, there’s a feeling of “jogging on the spot” over the past few years and I’m not sure that’s going to get us what we need.

Should we actually bring on a mature ruck to help English develop at training?
Should we bring in a senior leader or two to ensure training standards are high?
Is now, with the shake up of assistants across the league, the time to make some big calls in our coaching ranks?

We actually did go out and bring mature talent in last year (Bruce and Keath) - and I can't recall a time in our history where we went out and got bookends in the same trading period.

We still have holes in our list. Our ruck situation is precarious. Timmy is battling due to maturity, Sweet untested, and Trengove out of favour. The plan appears to be to pump games into Timmy and he is very promising - but do we have a ruck plan B? Our best games seem to involve Timmy playing a Scott Wynd style kick behind the play role, but I'm not sure our other rucks can do that.

[GVGjr]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

Things are never as good as you think or as bad as you fear. I have been insisting that GC have talent aplenty on their list for a long time now ('cos they do)...but beware the false dawn. Are they REALLY that different to the 2019 version of the Suns?

The thing about GC now compared to say 2 years back is that they're are getting a lot of their top end talent signing their 2nd deals with them and they are signing them early on. To me that is a real sign that the playing group is buying in to the future of the club.

It's one of those time will tell moments for them

[mjp]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

The thing about GC now compared to say 2 years back is that they're are getting a lot of their top end talent signing their 2nd deals with them and they are signing them early on. To me that is a real sign that the playing group is buying in to the future of the club.

To me it is a sign that the $ being offered early at GC are sufficient to keep them there...and Lynch staying 7 years before moving then winning a flag vs Scrimshaw leaving after 3 and being in and out of a losing side are both "you should sign for 2x more years" indicators!

[Grantysghost]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

To me it is a sign that the $ being offered early at GC are sufficient to keep them there...and Lynch staying 7 years before moving then winning a flag vs Scrimshaw leaving after 3 and being in and out of a losing side are both "you should sign for 2x more years" indicators!

I think they've made some significant off field improvements as well. They seem a much more professional organisation than when Mckenna and even Rocket were there. Couple that with a new training facility and an influx of amazing talent in the last two drafts they do seem to be on the right path. They need to keep that talent together though.

Edit: Just looked at their new training facility unveiled in 2017 looks amazing.

https://www.goldcoastfc.com.au/news/71467/suns-unveil-elite-training-administration-base

[1eyedog]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

I guess what I am trying to say is if you are no good then you need to find a catalyst for MASSIVE change. For us in 2014 it was trading our captain...tell me one other club that would be prepared to do that and suffer the membership/supporter backlash to try and spark change?? (Don't say GC who are another case altogether).

Peter Moore walked out on Collingwood when he was captain. Was Judd captain at the Eagles when he walked to Carlton? I mean, it happens.

Clubs often go through toxic hire / sack coach cyclical processes or go in search of a big name or two in the hope that they can turn their fortunes around but the consistent theme is that you need a good recruiter to nail 6-8 picks inside three years to have any chance of being competitive across a number of years.

[The Doctor]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

Teams down the bottom are often destined to stay there unless they:
1. Have a cultural breakthrough - president, ceo or coach led. (Dogs at end of 14, Lions end of 16, Cats 06 review etc).
2. Get a critical mass of talent within 12-months (before bad habits set in). (Maybe saints now).
3. Catch lightning in a bottle...then immediately return to the doldrums (Melbourne 2018).

Slow builds in the main simply DO NOT HAPPEN. Clubs (and coaches) are successful or they are doomed. And being doomed doesn’t mean someone can’t coach...it just means that they can’t coach AND lead cultural change...and the list of those who can is very short.

...the problem is that making the hard calls are "HARD" because often when you are no good the players holding you back are your BEST PLAYERS!

Things are never as good as you think or as bad as you fear.


Turnarounds can be achieved quickly...but you have to trigger change for there to be a turnaround. Tell me what change Essendon have ever really triggered? Moving Hird on allowed the 'club' (meaning staff) to move on from the cloak of the steroid program but it didn't change anything else...the same players are there - just older and less in love with the idea of playing footy...

I found these quotes the most interesting in this thread and thought I would relate a story that I witnessed when I was a youngster living in the AFL wilderness that GWS now call home, the western suburbs of Sydney. Back in the late 70's & early 80's VFL news was hard to come by and for my sporting fix for a while there I turned to rugby league and followed the Parramatta Eels.

When I arrived in Western Sydney as a young teenager I knew nothing about rugby league. I couldn't understand why they threw the ball backwards or why they couldn't kick (or catch). Being a Westie now, Parra were my local team. The Eels had never won a premiership in their history to that point in time but had won the most wooden spoons. However, the club was starting to come good having contested the finals from 1975-79 including 2 Grand Finals (1976 & 77) and a Grand Final Replay.

Change Number 1

At the end of 1979 they finished the regular season 2nd, a second successive year of making the finals but not getting to the GF with a squad boasting lots of Australian Internationals and NSW rep players, in other words some of the best players of the era, coach Terry Fearnley was replaced by John Peard.

Fearnley had seen the rise of Parra in the mid 70's and had taken the team close to winning their first premiership but not close enough. Despite the Grand Final appearances he was criticised by many, including his own players about his approach to the game, and had a club captain Ray Higgs walk out and join Manly after a GF loss.

John Peard had won premierships as a player at Easts and was part of the Parramatta teams that Fearnley coached. He was a highly regarded player and Australian representative. He had become a favourite adopted son in some ways and was now hanging up the boots to take over the reigns.

Parramatta entered the 1980 season as one of the premiership favourites. It didn't go that well. I was at a game at Cumberland late in the season. Parra were hanging on in the race to the finals and had to beat Western Suburbs, the bad boys and ladder leaders, to stay in the race. Parra got smashed. It was over at half time trailing 25-0 and most of the team beaten up. Unbelievably they failed to make the finals in 1980 with 'THAT' squad. The chance to capitalise on this era was over. Or was it?

Change Number 2, Lets Try Again

John Peard was dumped after one season. He was replaced for the 1981 season by Jack Gibson who had just spent a year out of the game and an unsuccessful stint as coach at the Rabbitohs in 78/79. However he had coached Easts to two premierships in 74/75. Ironically, Peard was one of Gibson's chief playmakers at Easts & Fearnley was an assistant coach to him.

Gibson, incredibly, got rid of most of the squad. Out went Australian and NSW/QLD state Representatives;

Arthur Beetson (the man credited with starting State of Origin rivalry and Aust capt), Graeme Olling, Garry Dowling, Lew Platz, Geoff Gerard and highly sought after Rugby International Tony Melrose

and club stalwarts; Mark Levy, Graeme Murray, Mick Pattison, John Baker & Robert Jay also left.

Other Rep stars like John Kolc, Neville Glover & Phil Mann would only make the odd cameo appearance and would be confined to playing in the reserves team.

It was a bloodbath, we supporters were distraught.

Gibson only brought in 2 recruits of any note. Old war horse Kevin 'stumpy' Stevens who also played in Gibson's premiership winning teams at Easts was one. The other, and most importantly, was Steve Edge who captained St George to a premiership win over Parra but had lost his place in the St George team by the time he was recruited to Parra. So basically we picked up 2 washed up has beens.


The Pillars

Despite losing all those stars Parra still had two of the greatest players of the era. Ray Price and Mick Cronin and were ably assisted by warriors Ron Hilditch and old man Bob O'Reilly (who looked 60yo when playing). These 4 would become the pillars of strength in the team for the season.

A master stroke by Gibson was a positional switch. Hilditch was replaced as hooker and made a prop forward. He was replaced as hooker by Steve Edge. Another was replacing Ray Price as captain. Also by Steve Edge.

We thought 'Gibson has lost the plot. Stupid old man belongs in a nursing home'.


The Whizz Kidz

In the previous year or two a few talented youngsters started making their debuts in the side. They came in as replacements for any one of the injured stars I mentioned earlier or came on as replacements. but none of them had earnt their spot in the best 13 as the players who were let go had blocked their way (and fair enough, they were established stars).

Parra had won the club championship 5 years in a row which to my knowledge had not been done before but didn't have a first grade premiership to show for it. The Parra juniors were strong.

Gibson decided it was time to give the kids a go. So in came;

Peter Sterling, Brett Kenny, Eric Grothe, Steve Ella, Peter Wynn & John Muggleton, who would all become Australian internationals and some of the best players to ever play the game.


What Happened Next

Half way through the season Parra were 6 wins and 6 losses and mid table. We thought it wasn't working and had given up hope of contesting the finals. Gibson's old team Easts were the raging favourite. But things started to gel and Parra won a few games unexpectedly and suddenly we were interested again. The big moment came when we came up against the bad boys of Western Suburbs late in the season (remembering how they smashed us out of the finals race a year earlier). Parra smacked em' . A 50 point turn around. Massive by rugby league standards. Now they started to believe and shot to 2nd. They would go on to beat favourites Easts in the semi's and would then win 3 premierships in a row under Gibson as coach and with Edge as captain.

With Price and Cronin staying on and the whizz kids becoming superstars they would play 5 grand finals & a preliminary in successive years, winning 4 premierships. Price and Cronin would retire in 1986 after the 4th premiership.

It was a remarkable time. The club made some massive calls on popular players and coaches during the era and it was hugely successful. The genesis of the success was the great leadership that took over the club from late 1980.

Parra hasn't won a premiership since.

[Bulldog4life]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

Peter Moore walked out on Collingwood when he was captain. Was Judd captain at the Eagles when he walked to Carlton? I mean, it happens.

Clubs often go through toxic hire / sack coach cyclical processes or go in search of a big name or two in the hope that they can turn their fortunes around but the consistent theme is that you need a good recruiter to nail 6-8 picks inside three years to have any chance of being competitive across a number of years.

Even Geelong lost their captain when Leigh Colbert walked out.

[Bornadog]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

Parra hasn't won a premiership since.

Great Story Doc. I think similar things have happened in the VFL/AFL over the years. I think since the AFL and 18 teams, I think it is even harder to win a premiership.

Leadership is so important from the top right down through the organisation.

On MJP's OP, I think leadership has been what has been lacking at Carlton for a very long time with multiple President's and Multiple CEO's, coaches etc.

[Raw Toast]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

So what has prevented our cultural breakthrough from producing consistent success like the Cats (and I would argue the Hawks are in this bucket too)?

Since end of 2014, we had a meteoric rise and have plummeted back to Earth just as quickly. In a sense, we're just a more successful version of Melbourne.

The Hawks went to the draft and rebuilt for a sustained period of success it can certainly be done. But they got Franklin, Hodge, Roughead, Lewis, Mitchell and built around that. They were pretty putrid in the Hay, Rawlings years.
Geelong were perennial second best until they got Bartel, Ling, Ablett, Corey, Enright, Chapman, Johnson, Scarlett around the same time and they came through together.
So it certainly can be done and when it is done well in conjunction with proper development it sets the stage for a period of success. Think the difference for us was it was a blend of old warriors and new stars so it’s a different path.

It’s rare to do what Cats and Hawks did for sure.

I'd argue that Geelong actually did slowly build an excellent core, but it was still a turbulent process. Ablett Jnr, Bartel and others started around 2002, they got a lot of buzz, made the prelim in 2004, the semi-final in 2005, then missed the finals in 2006. And then, after a disappointing 2-3 start in 2007 it was looking like they'd sack their coach and start afresh. But they smashed the Tigers by a mere 157 points in Round 6, won the flag, and established a dynasty on the back of the players who'd been in the system for 6 years before winning it all.

Hawthorn, on the other hand, won with a group of youngsters in 2008 to the surprise of most of the footy world. They then missed the finals (finishing 9th) in 2009, got knocked out in the first final in 2010 (after finishing 7th). Around this time Kennett was wanting to sack Clarkson. But they made the prelim in 2011, the GF in 2012, and then three-peated.

We're a bit behind Hawthorn at the moment, but the point is that there was a lot more turbulence and dissatisfaction with both teams (especially from their own supporters of course) along the way to becoming consistently dominant than is generally remembered.

I think MJP's point about the travails of Murphy, Morris, Boyd (and Picken), hurting us a lot, is another vital thing to consider. Hawthorn were lucky enough to be able to bring in Shaun Burgoyne after the 2009 season, and I credit him with much of the success that followed.

(If we look at the other really young team to win it unexpectedly, Essendon in 93, they: Missed the finals in 94 (10th), won one final in 95, were eliminated straight away in 96, finished 14 in 97, were again eliminated in the first week of 98, then made the prelim in 99 (after being the best team that season), dominated in 2000 and 2001, but only got 1 premiership from those three years of being the best team. And this dominance was mainly from the core of youngsters who helped win it all in 93.)

[hujsh]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

This thread really wasn't about the Bulldogs. It was triggered by me reading the Carlton stuff about it being 'a long time'...my point is that of course it is - because when you are no good, you are competing against yourself at training and further reinforcing bad habits and behaviours.

It is why so often you see a 'glut' of good players in one position on a list...because they are regularly competing against each other/observing one another at training...and equally why some teams can never get a good 'small forward' or whatever...

Last year West Coast had Rioli and Ryan...then suddenly Cameron comes in and is immediately kicking goals. No kidding - he is learning from these other guys EVERY DAY. Who is Weightman learning from at the dogs? I think in match sim he would be learning that the opposition defenders are pretty good and run away...and he is probably cheating to try and get a kick.

This makes me wonder if what we're seeing with Jack Martin is in part because he moved to the same team with Eddie Betts and is learning/training/competing with him?

Does it mean if we had recruited him we're unlikely to have seen as big an impact?

[Topdog]

Re: When you are no good...you are no good!

This makes me wonder if what we're seeing with Jack Martin is in part because he moved to the same team with Eddie Betts and is learning/training/competing with him?

Does it mean if we had recruited him we're unlikely to have seen as big an impact?

What we are seeing with Martin is that he is now at a Victorian club so the media pay attention to him.

He isnt doing anything that he hasnt done before.