List Management - Hawthorn

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

Mitchell & Ellis?

Hawks were good at trading out also - Rawlings, Hay, Croad. They missed a bit with trading Kennedy to Sydney but they had enough of his "type" so did the deal.

Ellis was certainly one.

They botched the Rawlings deal by taking Jacobs. Then Essendon botched it further by using pick 6 on Kepler Bradley.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

The Hawks have a highly rated team with their foot skills because it seems to be a prerequisite with their drafting and trading. They also seem to have a plan for every draft and every trade period whereas other sides consistently just top up.
.

I recall Rocket mentioning once about a trip to a UK Premier league club and when he quizzed about how they coach out technical skill deficiencies of recruits - simple answer was that they don;t. Players with deficiencies of key skills just don't get through the screening process....there is method in Hawthorns method.

[LostDoggy]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

Why would we pick players with technical deficiencies? The first thing that goes out the window under extreme pressure and no time is technique. At least a guy with decent basics will pull off a passable disposal instinctively. If you start with a player that is flawed in the first place you have no chance (as we see week after week after week).

Libba isn't thinking "okay, I see Jones leading across the 50 and there's 6 metres of space between him and the player zoning in front of him, so I'm going to pull my kick a bit short and drop it just over the defender into the space in front of him" -- he just does it and his impeccable technique will pull it off. Crossy or Boydy will see the same situation and pull the trigger the same way, but their flawed techniques means that the ball will float over Liam's head or drop short or go too high or whatever. They will then start compensating for the mistake and make the situation worse.

---

On the OP, no doubt trading has to be a part of a list management strategy. Geelong is an anomaly at the moment but I think this season is a bit of a false indication: their Premiership teams had Ottens and Mooney in them, both traded in.

The big difference in Hawthorn and Geelong's trading, compared to ours, is that they trade for top-shelf players (all of Mooney, Ottens, Hale, Burgoyne etc. were important contributors to their previous teams and had played 50-150 games), while we keep trading in fringe types (Vez, Moles, DJ) who have barely played for their previous teams and so are for all intents and purposes unknown quantities at AFL level.. they were essentially mature-age draftees, not trades in the true sense of the word, regardless of the mechanics of how we got them to the club. In our defence, we did 'trade' in Aker, Bazza and Huddo pretty cheap. We need to keep doing that, but with slightly younger players. We need a pro recruiter (I'm sure WOOF members would love to volunteer to do this!) to just get out there and find these guys.. there are around 5 every year, and we need to be in the market for all of them.

[Mofra]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

I'll make it short and sweet
Use the draft please! Geelong method for mine and let's get our recruiting and coaching right

The Geelong method wasn't as simple as simply drafting.

They did get a free ride with F/S picks that is now closed to many teams, although in the Libba/Wallis year it was very good for us.

The other factor is their contract structures - when Ablett was a semi-consistent HF type they signed him up on a 5 year deal at the then "fair value" - during their 2 premiership years they were paying Ablett less than the average AFL salary for one of the best players in the game. Certainly helped them trade in Ottens (Mooney was a cheapie?)
Harry Taylor was a mature ager (at least 1-2 years older) taken with a first round draft pick too. Pods looks an inspired choice too.

[LostDoggy]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

We need a pro recruiter (I'm sure WOOF members would love to volunteer to do this!) to just get out there and find these guys.. there are around 5 every year, and we need to be in the market for all of them.

Sorry to quote myself, just started to think about who the moneyball picks are out there this year, and wanted to start talking about them. Mods please let me know if this is taking the thread off-track and I should start another thread.

Last year, Houli and Maric were clear standouts that were looking for a home, and so it has proved. Can't believe Richmond poached both of them -- the Tigers are renown for their bad trades!

Who is floating around on the edges of various squads who has otherwise played around 50 games, is clearly an AFL standard player that would improve our team (so no real speculative long-shots, but already a 'good ordinary player'), but is flying under the radar of other clubs so that they would come cheapish? We do have 5 goodish picks to use, so someone we could get for one or two 2nd rounders would do the trick.

My first pass shortlist to at least observe over the next 3 months:

• Richard Tambling. This guy is much-maligned because of his 4th pick tag, but if you take that away, you have a solid moneyball pick. Has played 118 games, is only 25, has been traded once already, can't get a game for the Crows at the moment, but has played some fantastic games in the last 3 years. Has good disposal, can play in the middle and on the half-back line, and will definitely be a solid contributor in our next 5 years.
• Brent Macaffer. 24 years old, 30 games. This guy will add some value to our forward 50 -- we need a goalsneak with some pace and an ability to tackle, basically what we have Hooper on the list for, so will be an upgrade. For what it's worth, also has experience playing in a premiership team. Completely out of favour at the Pies, will come cheap.
• Jesse White. 24 years old, 56 games. White is an old hobby horse of mine. Barely sighted all of last year, but has played a couple of games this year and still looks pretty solid. It's a total mystery why he's disappeared, maybe there's a deeper story there, but if he's available at the right price, could be a real player over the next 4-5 years.

[more to come!]

[LostDoggy]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

Gavin Urquhart? 24, 41 games, pick 21 back in 2006. What's the story here? Has a lovely long kick, a great size, really looked a player when he first came on the scene, but has hardly been seen in a year. I know there were some fitness queries, but surely there's more to this than meets the eye. Anyone know the inside goss?

Can't believe we missed Andrew Walker when the opportunity was there to take him for a second round pick. 100 gamer 25-year old. We did get Sherman instead.

Austin was also a good-ish moneyball pick-up.

[chef]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

Gavin Urquhart? 24, 41 games, pick 21 back in 2006. What's the story here? Has a lovely long kick, a great size, really looked a player when he first came on the scene, but has hardly been seen in a year. I know there were some fitness queries, but surely there's more to this than meets the eye. Anyone know the inside goss?

Can't believe we missed Andrew Walker when the opportunity was there to take him for a second round pick. 100 gamer 25-year old. We did get Sherman instead.

Austin was also a good-ish moneyball pick-up.

The problem was Carlton wanted a first rounder that we had already set aside for a F/S. Andrew was extremely keen to get to the Dogs at the time, but he's glad that he stayed where he is now.

[Remi Moses]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

The problem was Carlton wanted a first rounder that we had already set aside for a F/S. Andrew was extremely keen to get to the Dogs at the time, but he's glad that he stayed where he is now.

Been pretty ordinary this season though.
Certainly would have preferred him over Shermo.

[Remi Moses]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

The Geelong method wasn't as simple as simply drafting.

They did get a free ride with F/S picks that is now closed to many teams, although in the Libba/Wallis year it was very good for us.

The other factor is their contract structures - when Ablett was a semi-consistent HF type they signed him up on a 5 year deal at the then "fair value" - during their 2 premiership years they were paying Ablett less than the average AFL salary for one of the best players in the game. Certainly helped them trade in Ottens (Mooney was a cheapie?)
Harry Taylor was a mature ager (at least 1-2 years older) taken with a first round draft pick too. Pods looks an inspired choice too.

Agree they got an armchair ride in the F/S stakes, but they nailed the 99 and 01 drafts.
Gavin Urquart can't kick and if Sydney can't get anything out of White then nobody will

[LostDoggy]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

I've always (begrudgingly) admired the list management of West Coast. They even managed to turn Judd's departure into a somewhat-positive move (of course, losing Judd was horrible for them, but they made the most of a bad situation). Much as I hate them, they have a fantastic professional culture at the club.

[Bornadog]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

I've always (begrudgingly) admired the list management of West Coast. They even managed to turn Judd's departure into a somewhat-positive move (of course, losing Judd was horrible for them, but they made the most of a bad situation). Much as I hate them, they have a fantastic professional culture at the club.

They also seem to have a deliberate strategy to pick players that have a mature body and who are ready to play even in their first year. Also, their players seem to be able to kick the ball beautifully.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

[*]Richard Tambling. This guy is much-maligned because of his 4th pick tag, but if you take that away, you have a solid moneyball pick. Has played 118 games, is only 25, has been traded once already, can't get a game for the Crows at the moment, but has played some fantastic games in the last 3 years. Has good disposal, can play in the middle and on the half-back line, and will definitely be a solid contributor in our next 5 years.[*]Brent Macaffer. 24 years old, 30 games. This guy will add some value to our forward 50 -- we need a goalsneak with some pace and an ability to tackle, basically what we have Hooper on the list for, so will be an upgrade. For what it's worth, also has experience playing in a premiership team. Completely out of favour at the Pies, will come cheap.[*]Jesse White. 24 years old, 56 games. White is an old hobby horse of mine. Barely sighted all of last year, but has played a couple of games this year and still looks pretty solid. It's a total mystery why he's disappeared, maybe there's a deeper story there, but if he's available at the right price, could be a real player over the next 4-5 years.[/LIST]

[more to come!]

Not sure Tambling meets the win your own ball mantra

Isn't Macaffer out with a knee? Wouldn't like to trade in someone with an injury already.

Jesse White just does not fit us. Cordy, Roughead, Campbell have us covered in what he can do unless you would like to trade one of those.

[LostDoggy]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

Hi all, I was just throwing names out there -- didn't have time to do a heck of a lot of research, but will spend some time later this week doing it.

However, those who have questioned my (admittedly not great) list, feel free to come up with some suggestions too! It would be great to see what WOOFers can come up with collectively.

[LostDoggy]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

Not sure Tambling meets the win your own ball mantra

Tambling is a darn good inside/outside player -- has played some blinding games out of the middle, even though everyone just remembers the soft, outside flanker. Sure, he may not be Smith-class inside, but seriously, we need another Smith like we need a hole in the head.

What suggestions would you have Bulldog Joe?

[Before I Die]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

They also seem to have a deliberate strategy to pick players that have a mature body and who are ready to play even in their first year. Also, their players seem to be able to kick the ball beautifully.

When they finished on the bottom just a few years ago, the major knock on them was lack of speed and skill in the mid-field.