Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

Just checking the records again.

It just says 0 flags, nothing about bad luck

You could argue that Saints side underperformed by not winning one.

Also if they win 09 they probably dont come back with the same motivation in 2010. Too many what ifs. It's 0 flags! They're also 1pt away from having 0 flags in their history.

[Ozza]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

Regardless of whether you wish to rate the saints, not rate the saints, and the same for Ross Lyon - the stark reality is that they don't have as much talent as we do and the problem lies with us that we are even in the same conversation as the saints right now.

In my opinion, if you think Beveridge is coaching well, managing players well and maximising the talent at his disposal over the last 2 seasons (at least) - then we couldn't be further apart.
We have a few list management issues - but we have far too many players who have either stalled or gone backwards, I think this point is undeniable.
If we are using the saints as a comparison - they have many players (of all talent levels) who have been able to find their best football under their new coach.

[Mofra]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

Just checking the records again.

It just says 0 flags, nothing about bad luck

You could argue that Saints side underperformed by not winning one.

You need to get into the position to win a flag before you can actually win one.
Ross can coach.

[Grantysghost]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

You need to get into the position to win a flag before you can actually win one.
Ross can coach.

I don't think the argument is can he coach, it's more what has he done to deserve the fawning some do over his ability.
Rodney Eade doesn't get the same adulation for eg.

Bevo is a better coach no doubt imo , however you wouldn't hear that anywhere.

How you don't win a flag with that Saints side he had.

I think his best work was at Freo early.

[Sedat]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

I don't think the argument is can he coach, it's more what has he done to deserve the fawning some do over his ability.
Rodney Eade doesn't get the same adulation for eg.

Bevo is a better coach no doubt imo , however you wouldn't hear that anywhere.

How you don't win a flag with that Saints side he had.

I think his best work was at Freo early.

It's an interesting discussion around coaches and their tactical ability on match days vs their ability to motivate/inspire the playing ground during the week/in pre-season to get their complete buy-in. Does anyone really think Goodwin and Fagan are tactical geniuses who are superior on match-days to the likes of Ross Lyon and Chris Scott? Yet there is a real chance Fagan will join Goodwin as a premiership coach by the end of this month, something Lyon never achieved.

Bevo excels in the latter and probably not the former, although he was pretty switched on tactically in 2015-16 IMO. Like the entire club, Bevo needs a refresh and rethink about what and how to achieve the ultimate success, because the last 2 years have been very underwhelming (relative to internal expectations and compared to the gradual ascent from 2018 to 2021).

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

I think it's hard to argue against the fact our list is better and has a lot more star talent than the saints' yet they played finals and we didn't. They outperformed us.

Simply put, we're not getting enough out of our group. The saints are maximising their output. The reasons we're underperforming will be numerous and varied and exactly what the review should uncover.

[doggies ftw]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

They won one more game than us - hardly went pass us

Mate they played in a final, coming from far behind us with a far inferior list.

They absolutely went past us come on 😂

I think the answer here is pretty obvious really

[Eastdog]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

It is just very frustrating as I rate the quality of our list and that the Saints who don't have the greatest list do better and make the finals and they had a number of injuries at the start of season. We need a lot of our fringe players to play a role in the team for us to go forward next season.

[jeemak]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

I really don't know where the narrative that Bevo is a great motivator and not a great tactician comes from.

Motivation alone doesn't get sides with cobbled together defences or forward structures to grand finals and premierships. His tactical nous is severely underrated in my view.

[doggies ftw]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

I really don't know where the narrative that Bevo is a great motivator and not a great tactician comes from.

Motivation alone doesn't get sides with cobbled together defences or forward structures to grand finals and premierships. His tactical nous is severely underrated in my view.

How much did he even have to do with this in hindsight? As it stands we’ve been hands down the least tactically competent team in the league for 2 years since a lot of his support left. Doesn’t bode well.

[jeemak]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

How much did he even have to do with this in hindsight? As it stands we’ve been hands down the least tactically competent team in the league for 2 years since a lot of his support left. Doesn’t bode well.

By what measure?

[doggies ftw]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

By what measure?

Well it’s obviously subjective but it’s clear as day for everyone to see - underpeforming massively relative to the list, losing close games/unable to hold a lead, dominating key fundamental statistics weekly and still losing games, massive failure in the more obvious tactics ie back off 5 last year. Unable to defend opposition transition from fwd to def, unable to stop momentum fueled run-ons.

These are all MASSIVE tactical failures, yes he seemed ahead of the game in 2015/16, considering how far off it he is right now either mentally he’s lost it or maybe there was some more contributing factors in the past that we’ve all overlooked. Who knows but either way as it stands we are being setup to fail.

[azabob]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

I really don't know where the narrative that Bevo is a great motivator and not a great tactician comes from.

Motivation alone doesn't get sides with cobbled together defences or forward structures to grand finals and premierships. His tactical nous is severely underrated in my view.

I don't share the view Beveridge isn't a great tactician as quite frankly I have no idea, but has the narrative been formed because King and Hansen leaving coincided with us dropping down the ladder?

Which is quite strange considering majority of supporters were not sold on our assistant coaches pre 20021!

[Sedat]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

I really don't know where the narrative that Bevo is a great motivator and not a great tactician comes from.

Motivation alone doesn't get sides with cobbled together defences or forward structures to grand finals and premierships. His tactical nous is severely underrated in my view.

In the last 2 years we are losing the same way and we are not moving the magnets when it is obvious that momentum has shifted in game - only West Coast and North have conceded more 5+ goal run-ons to opposition than we have in that time.

I reckon Bevo would be the first to admit his match-day coaching in 2022-23 isn't quite as sharp as it was in 2015-16, or even 2019-21. We of course also have system and personnel issues as well - there's a lot to fix this off-season.

I also think motivational/buy-in is severely underrated in a senior coach, and Bevo clearly has been elite in this area for most of his tenure. He still obviously has the players on-side now.

[Mofra]

Re: Why have we lost ground to the Saints?

I don't share the view Beveridge isn't a great tactician as quite frankly I have no idea, but has the narrative been formed because King and Hansen leaving coincided with us dropping down the ladder?

Which is quite strange considering majority of supporters were not sold on our assistant coaches pre 20021!

Well, taking a dogs breakfast of a club to a finals appearance in 2015, the a flag in 2016, would speak to at least some tactical ability.

I do wonder whether coaches now have less influence than they once did given the myriad of rules designed to take away from in-game flexibility, primarily the third-man up rule in ruck contests and the 6-6-6. List quality, and having that quality spread evenly across the ground, is more important than it ever has been.

I don't think our list is anywhere near as good as some suggest - there's not a single team in the 8 without a 'better than average' intercept defender, small lockdown defender and pure crumbing small forward in the best 22. We have holes that should be easy to fix, but they're still holes.