I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

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  • Sockeye Salmon
    Bulldog Team of the Century
    • Jan 2007
    • 6365

    I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

    Let's get one thing clear, right off the bat, I hate trading.

    How do you plead with one guy to re-sign out of loyalty while at the same time you're trying to shaft his mate for the best deal you can?

    You try to build a team environment and insist on every bloke bleeding for the cause, "oh, except you, we got offered pick 22 and we only thought you were worth pick 35 so bugger off."


    There are some exceptions.

    You trade a bloke out when:

    * He is fringe and not getting much of a go and not likely to - Shane Birss
    * The bloke wants out and you're not dealing with Hawthorn - Nathan Brown

    You trade blokes in when:

    * You can get hold of a gun dirt cheap - Aker
    * You can fill a gaping hole dirt cheap - Ben Hudson
    * You can give a lifeline to a kid with talent who isn't getting a go where he is - Tim Callan



    Which brings me to my point (eventually).

    If real life was a game of Supercoach, I would trade Daniel Cross.

    This might surprise a few people, considering I named my son after him, but purely from an operational perspective he is superfluous. There's no point trading duds because you don't get anything for them (even if you package a few of them up together regardless of what they think on BF) and Cross would still have some very good value.

    The media talk about how quick we are but I think it's a falacy, we have a number of plodders - like Cross and Gia - and a few of our better young mids aren't real quick either - Higgins and Ward.

    We are pretty well off for inside players, Ward has come on and Reid will be best 22 next year as well, both are ball winners.

    Cross is 26 (27 next March) so is the perfect age for it. I think he will drop off the perch pretty quickly as he gets older, one decent injury could stop him from training for a while and fitness is his major weapon.

    I'd want a draft pick or two and they would need to be decent.

    Most clubs are going to drop away over the next few years as players fall away because of injury, form or age and with the draft concession coming sides will not be as easily able to re-stock.

    If we went into the draft loaded with a top 10 pick, a top 20 pick and a top 30-ish pick we could re-stock when others can't. With Wallis and Libba next year we could almost avoid the two years of missing out on the draft altogether.
  • mighty_west
    Coaching Staff
    • Feb 2008
    • 3412

    #2
    Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

    It is an interesting debate SS, i guess at the end of the day, it's club first, player second, but i do agree with saying, how can you sweat on players being loyal when your trying to shaft others for whats seen as a best fit for the club.

    In regards to Crossy, if you asked me this time last year, i'd say no way known should we trade a player who is so dedicated, so tough, has never shirked an issue in his life, in fact sometimes you wonder how he escapes such dangerous situations he outs himself into going back against the play.

    However, right now, as you stated, we have younger players stepping up, Crossy also was my fave to take over the captaincy role one day, i reckon now both Boyd & Higgins have passed him, Crossy has also admitted himself that he was oh so close to leaving in 2003 due to a lack of opportunities, although you get the feeling he is well & truly happy with being a Bulldog, he might fit into the "let's not shaft our players" category.

    The great thing Rocket has brought in regards to trading is common sense, and both ways as well, players like Birss, Ray, Power all requesting their choice of clubs, it's also used to free up cap space by dishing off dead wood that might get an opportunity elsewhere - Bowden, Rawlings.

    We also no longer bend over and take it up the you know what like we did during the Rhode / Newport days...

    We seem to go into the trade period with a friendly & no bullshit attitude, and clubs aren't scared to trade with us, Aker, Callan, even McDougall came to us for next to nothing, which as it ended up, was about what he was really worth, none of this Tim Boyle for Shaun Higgins crap!
    Last edited by mighty_west; 10-09-2009, 12:19 PM. Reason: Rhode being riden like a pony.

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    • Mantis
      Hall of Fame
      • Apr 2007
      • 15320

      #3
      Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

      Agree with that call SS, if it wasn't Cross it could be Boyd.

      Both are highly respected (and damn good) players at our club, but for the sound reasoning you gave I think one of these 2 is expendable.

      Now in 3 weeks time when we are both still drunk from celebrating a famous GF victory we can look back and laugh, but if we were to fall over before then I think we have to look at improving the list, and trading is one way we can achieve that.

      Comment

      • comrade
        Hall of Fame
        • Jun 2008
        • 17921

        #4
        Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

        I love Crossy, but I’d do it in a heart beat.
        Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

        Comment

        • bulldogtragic
          The List Manager
          • Jan 2007
          • 34316

          #5
          Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

          What clubs would look at Crossy and what would they be willing to part with.
          Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

          Comment

          • comrade
            Hall of Fame
            • Jun 2008
            • 17921

            #6
            Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

            Originally posted by bulldogtragic
            What clubs would look at Crossy and what would they be willing to part with.
            I think Sydney might be interested - we know they hate bottoming out and love in and under types. Pick 6

            Port Adelaide needs some backbone. Pick 8

            2 picks in the first round of the last semi-uncompromised draft could have huge (positive) ramifications in the next few years, if we get it right.
            Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

            Comment

            • Rocket Science
              Coaching Staff
              • Oct 2007
              • 4850

              #7
              Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

              Not averse to the concept of trading Cross to address needs elsewhere, but I'm not necessarily sold on the prospect that "he will drop off the perch pretty quickly as he gets older". He's been a remarkably durable player in the Scott West mould, who clearly looks after himself, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he likewise ploughed on productively into his early 30's.

              My only other issue is, while the ambition and timing of the proposal appeals, if Crossy's dealt, we'd really want to nail those draft picks.
              BORDERLINE FLYING

              Comment

              • Desipura
                WOOF Member
                • Mar 2008
                • 4344

                #8
                Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

                How does this sound TCD? Can we please wait until the end of the season before we consider trading our favourite sons?

                Comment

                • The Coon Dog
                  Bulldog Team of the Century
                  • Jan 2007
                  • 7578

                  #9
                  Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

                  Originally posted by Desipura
                  How does this sound TCD? Can we please wait until the end of the season before we consider trading our favourite sons?
                  You can do much better than that.
                  [COLOR="Red"][B][U][COLOR="Blue"]85, 92, 97, 98, 08, 09, 10... Break the curse![/COLOR][/U][/B][/COLOR]

                  Comment

                  • Mofra
                    Hall of Fame
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 14868

                    #10
                    Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

                    I'm going to have to disagree. Strongly.

                    High draft picks are no guarantee of a gun.
                    Put simply, would you trade Crossy for:

                    a. Jordan McMahon?
                    b. Sam Power?
                    c. Tim Walsh?

                    and to make things interesting:
                    d. Farren Ray?
                    e. Jarryd Grant?
                    f. Tom Williams?

                    These are some of our high picks from the last few years. I place Cross' contribution to the team above every one of these players
                    With the exception of Cooney & Higgins, Cross is ahead of all of our early picks over the past 10-15 years.

                    This is before you talk about the loyalty to player issues - fair enough to trade a bloke out of necessity because there is something on offer, but to rip out a member of the leadership group because of our opinion of trading currency doesn't strike me as a particularly effective way to built group morale, remembering that one of the principles of leadership is that "morale is a focrce-multiplier".
                    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

                    Comment

                    • LostDoggy
                      WOOF Member
                      • Jan 2007
                      • 8307

                      #11
                      Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

                      I would be more worried about the impact of trading a very popular player would have on the playing group!! It cannot be understated that a happy playing group is key to good results!!

                      Comment

                      • Bulldog Revolution
                        Coaching Staff
                        • Dec 2006
                        • 3924

                        #12
                        Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

                        Originally posted by Sockeye Salmon

                        If real life was a game of Supercoach, I would trade Daniel Cross.
                        This for me is the key lin Sockeyes post

                        If were to trade Cross what would we receive? - realistically a second or third rounder. Its pretty similar to Sydney looking at trading Jude Bolton a few years a go. Cross wont return a high enough pick to justify it, and given that he is the embodiment of everything a successful club wants in terms of professionalism, application and commitment it makes no sense.

                        Comment

                        • The Coon Dog
                          Bulldog Team of the Century
                          • Jan 2007
                          • 7578

                          #13
                          Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

                          Originally posted by western monkey
                          I would be more worried about the impact of trading a very popular player would have on the playing group!! It cannot be understated that a happy playing group is key to good results!!
                          Too true WM, one only has too look back at Monty going to Port.
                          [COLOR="Red"][B][U][COLOR="Blue"]85, 92, 97, 98, 08, 09, 10... Break the curse![/COLOR][/U][/B][/COLOR]

                          Comment

                          • bulldogtragic
                            The List Manager
                            • Jan 2007
                            • 34316

                            #14
                            Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

                            Originally posted by Bulldog Revolution
                            This for me is the key lin Sockeyes post

                            If were to trade Cross what would we receive? - realistically a second or third rounder. Its pretty similar to Sydney looking at trading Jude Bolton a few years a go. Cross wont return a high enough pick to justify it, and given that he is the embodiment of everything a successful club wants in terms of professionalism, application and commitment it makes no sense.
                            I'm towards you a little here.

                            I think we tend to overrate our players. Whilst Cross is a very good players, pick 6 or 8 seems exceptionally high. I wouldn't put money down on that happening.
                            Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

                            Comment

                            • LostDoggy
                              WOOF Member
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 8307

                              #15
                              Re: I think trading is the work of the devil, but just for the sake of it ...

                              Originally posted by Mofra
                              I'm going to have to disagree. Strongly.

                              High draft picks are no guarantee of a gun.
                              Put simply, would you trade Crossy for:

                              a. Jordan McMahon?
                              b. Sam Power?
                              c. Tim Walsh?

                              and to make things interesting:
                              d. Farren Ray?
                              e. Jarryd Grant?
                              f. Tom Williams?

                              These are some of our high picks from the last few years. I place Cross' contribution to the team above every one of these players
                              With the exception of Cooney & Higgins, Cross is ahead of all of our early picks over the past 10-15 years.

                              This is before you talk about the loyalty to player issues - fair enough to trade a bloke out of necessity because there is something on offer, but to rip out a member of the leadership group because of our opinion of trading currency doesn't strike me as a particularly effective way to built group morale, remembering that one of the principles of leadership is that "morale is a focrce-multiplier".
                              I agree with every word of this

                              Drafting is not an exact science. The risk in giving away an established player against the success/failure factor just doesn't weigh up

                              Sockeye has put forward the downside against Cross. What about the fact he is a club B&F and there is no reason to suggest he won't repeat that?

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