Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

[LostDoggy]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

On another note I think Eade shoul give Harbrow a run in the forward pocket this week. As we need a small fast forward to pick up the
crumbs in the games we are lacking hitting targets or just being dominated.

Back to the future?

[Before I Die]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

Johnson is on the vets list so he doesn't count.

Moles will be elevated, taking up a spot.

Liberatore and Wallis will take up 2 more spots.

Another couple will have to go, and Hill would be one under consideration (obviously trade rather than delisting).

Everybody is tradeable, however, I think we will have to agree to disagree regarding Hill's worth.

It appears that having an average game in the seniors is a much worse crime than having an average game in the seconds or a fair game in the NAB cup. Perhaps if Hill was not playing due to injury he would get more cred. Then the calls would be "bring in Hill as soon as he is fit".

I believe Hill will be a very, very good AFL player, I hope it is with us.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

So, you're happy for laud one player who has a distinct lack of defensive pressure, but not another who you perceive as soft?

Yes, Higgins is a terrific finisher and should become a top line player. He still has a lot of work to do to ensure his game becomes more well rounded, otherwise he'll be another flashy player who can't do much else. His skills and game sense are terrific, but his speed, contested skills and especially his defensive efforts which often leave a lot to be desired (and have for his entire time at the club).

Hill, for all the talk of him being "soft" is one of our hardest working defensive players. He lacks the physical side to his game, but that is fine. I'd like to see him put his body on the line more often, but some players just aren't going to win contested ball time and time again, and he is one of them. We know he contests very hard aerially, that takes courage. He also chases harder than just about any other forward we have.

If we are expecting him to play the role of an inside mid, sure, punish him for not winning contested ball. The fact is we aren't. He has a defined role in the side, and I think he plays it pretty well.

Without Hill, our F50 pressure would be absolutely stuffed!

I cant agree, I think there would be very few games where Hills contribution matched or exceeded Higgins. I think Shaun is miles ahead of Josh, who would you pick first? Pretty easy answer IMO. Hill just doesnt seem that keen to me. GC17 bait.

[soupman]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

Those criticising Higgins. IMO he's the best finisher at the club, and as a half forward in the top 4-5 in the league.

Thats all well and good, however he still has to work the other way.

This.

I'd go as far as to say this year ought to be a make it or move on year for Hill.

Really no excuses anymore.

I think this comment is unfair. Josh Hill has come a lot further than many other players from his draft. As a 21 year old he has shown he has the ability to be a dangerous forward in our forwardline, kicking 33 goals last season.

But I can't see him being moved on at all. As mentioned by others we lose Akermanis, Hall, Johnson and probably Hahn in the next couple of years. Thats 4 out of 6 forwards. Who replaces them?

Hill has shown he can play that Johnson like mid sized marking forward role. He's shown he can kick goals on the run, from crumbing or from marks, both contested and on the lead. He's shown an ability to find space, push up the ground to a wing, and has attributes such as endurance, leap, agility and sticky hands that make him a difficult match up.

Yes he could work harder, yes he isn't physical (I don't expect him to be), and yes he does go missing in matches. But why would you trade a 21 year old, athletic freak who has already shown he can perform in a role that we will soon have to find more players to fill due to retirements?

[stefoid]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

ah, its just good to have a guy in the side who can take a big hanger, its good stuff. If he put on too much more weight, which I dont think his body is suited to anyway, he wouldnt have that ridiculous spring off two steps that catches his opponents out.

I wonder that rocket doesnt play him as a purely defensive forward to tag the opposition rebounder. Halve Heath Shaws possession count and kick one goal himself and thats a job well done I reckon.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

Wasn't the issue with Hill the fact that he failed to be effective in stopping / wrapping up defenders, ie a contested situation becomes a win for the opposition when the ball hits the ground?

It sometimes looks like defenders can get away from him too easily when he doesn't mark the ball.

Having said that, I think Hill is unfairly maligned as he is a tall who can mark and has improved a number of his defensive efforts.

[AndrewP6]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

Wasn't the issue with Hill the fact that he failed to be effective in stopping / wrapping up defenders, ie a contested situation becomes a win for the opposition when the ball hits the ground?

It sometimes looks like defenders can get away from him too easily when he doesn't mark the ball.

Having said that, I think Hill is unfairly maligned as he is a tall who can mark and has improved a number of his defensive efforts.

He's listed as 186cm, not sure this makes him a tall...

[Missing-Dog]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

With Hills size, could he lay an effective tackle against a burly backmen?
I just think his intensity or more so tenacity isnt there. Hes not ferocious enough.
Needs some angry pills and needs to run thru some walls before the game. Hehehe

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

With Hills size, could he lay an effective tackle against a burly backmen?
I just think his intensity or more so tenacity isnt there. Hes not ferocious enough.
Needs some angry pills and needs to run thru some walls before the game. Hehehe

Hill gets a lot of stick for what is a very laconic playing style.

He's only young and his defensive efforts are improving. Currently he offers more in this department than Johnson, Akermanis, Murphy, Higgins and Giansiracusa.

[Mantis]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

Having finally watched the game here are my thoughts:

* We were better than I expected us to be. Going on some of the comments around the traps I thought we stunk it up big time. We actually showed some good signs for large parts of the game.

* We have to be able to stop run-ons. The 5 goals conceeded at the end of the 1st qtr & another 3 before 3/4 time killed us. We are getting in a habit of busting a nut to get back into the contest only to see it washed away with 5 minutes of sloppy footy. We did the same in the QF against Geelong last year.

* Our conversion rate was poor and it cost us dearly. On the Gilbee miss I thought it was poor play by Higgins in the lead up. He either had to pass the ball straight away or kick the goal himself. By the time he passed it off to Gilbs the clear area around had been closed forcing Gilbs to kick under pressure.

* Our defenders were off their game. They must have been crook because to a man they are better than that.

* Cross has to tag. He is courageous as they come and works as hard as anyone else, but in these 'offensive roles' he just doesn't hurt the opposition with the ball. He needs to become our Cameron Ling.

* Our mid-sized forwards (bar Murf) were poor to very poor. Aker, Gia, Hahn, Johnson, Higgins & Hill didn't do enough and need to extract the digit.

-----

It's always a shit feeling to lose a 'big' game, but there was enough in that game to suggest we are in for another good year. We battled hard for large parts of the game, but let ourseleves down with some poor finishing and silly errors which we normally don't make.

We can't let ourselves fall into the trap of playing catch-up footy. We are able to pile on the pressure when we are behind and can run down any team, but you waste alot of energy doing so and are then liable to a lapse in concentration in which a good team can pile on quick goals. (which has happened on more than one occassion)

The Richmond game shapes up as a walk in the park (hope the players don't treat it that way), but we are than faced with 4 games in a row against other potential finalists which we need to be 'up' for. In these games we need to show the defensive pressure we are becoming renowned for, for extended periods rather than just in spurts.

[Go_Dogs]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

I cant agree, I think there would be very few games where Hills contribution matched or exceeded Higgins. I think Shaun is miles ahead of Josh, who would you pick first? Pretty easy answer IMO. Hill just doesnt seem that keen to me. GC17 bait.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say Hill is superior to Higgins, because based on output that is obviously not the case. I was merely trying to emphasise that some players get a pass for non-effort defensively, whilst others don't - based on perception.


I just don't understand why would we trade a 21 year old, potential match winner because he isn't a super star at winning the contested ball? That is not his role, nor should it be. Yes, it would be better if he went more often when it was his time to, but I just don't believe the soft tag that he gets labelled with. Having re-watched our first final from 2009 a few times, Hill had a few poor efforts, but also did some very good things with repeat efforts in contested situations - yet because of a couple of memorable, "didn't go" efforts his game was widely perceived as poo and soft.

He's not the most physical player - but that is not what I am saying. I'm saying his efforts are underrated, and the perception of him being soft is making a lot of people have negative conceptions about him and his efforts without really taking in what I perceive to be the reality of the situation - that he does work hard defensively, that he adds a lot offensively, and he's doing his role.

Obviously, we all have different opinions and that is fine. I just think Hill cops the wrath a bit more than is warranted.

[EasternWest]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

Hill gets a lot of stick for what is a very laconic playing style.

He's only young and his defensive efforts are improving. Currently he offers more in this department than Johnson, Akermanis, Murphy, Higgins and Giansiracusa.

I'd agree with you that Hill's loping style makes him look lazier than he is, but I think you're being a bit unfair to Aker and Murphy (last weekend anyway) in regards to defensive pressure.

FWIW it's worth I think Hill does need to improve in some areas, but I don't think he's as far off the pace as some others think he is.

[mjp]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

Having finally watched the game here are my thoughts:

* We were better than I expected us to be. Going on some of the comments around the traps I thought we stunk it up big time. We actually showed some good signs for large parts of the game.

Agree. 2nd and (most of) 3rd q were excellent.

Inability to convert chances in 3rd q cost us dearly. Forward line crowded though, O'Brien and Maxwell superb at playing help defense....Collingwood are a very good side. They actually might just be better than us.

My concern was/remains the forward line. Bombing away to Hall is just as ineffective as bombing away to Minson when he is outnumbered 3 to 1. More movement and more f+c efforts are required.

Defenders? I know what you are saying, but getting beat one-on-one by Medhurst will happen, and the way the ball came down in the last quarter, well, what chance did they have?

[stefoid]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

Akers defensive pressure is always first rate/

[LostDoggy]

Re: Game Day - R1 Western Bulldogs vs Collingwood

- yet because of a couple of memorable, "didn't go" efforts his game was widely perceived as poo and soft.

That is the whole issue

"Not going" when it is your turn is undefendable and many clubs would dispense with a player who dared to do it on two occasions.