Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

Even after coming off a good game, Mitch is under the pump. I actually have no idea what everyone is on about, he has produced the same games and consistency as he always has.

In regards to Eagleton and Hahn ( two players who seem to get singled out a great deal here ) , IMO (humbly ) you are only as good as your last three games.

So let's break it down

Dream Team points are measured thus
Kicks: 3 points
Handballs: 2 points
Mark: 3 points
Tackles: 4 points
Free kicks for: 1 point
Free kicks against: -3 points
Hitouts: 1 point
Goals: 6 points
Behinds: 1 point

Clearly Dream team points are skewed heavily toward goals. Clearly, not everyone in the team is meant to score them, having other roles. However, these are two players that should be able to kick set shots and convert. So no excuses.

In the last three games Mitch has been 16th, then 6th, then 17th in our team.
You would have to say then that his performance is below average - average / ok.
On these statistics you would say his form is fluctuating.
He is not performing badly ( clearly in our best 22 ) but average / below average.

Nathan performed 12th, 11th and 9th best in consecutive games.
You would also have to say that his performance is fair - average / ok and improving.
Clearly he is not performing badly ( also clearly in our best 22 ) but average / well / improving.


I feel it is a trend for fans to want to burn through players to find the next big thing.
It's not a computer game we are playing. You can't just swap and change on a whim - you have to have faith in players and build on mistakes and aim for improvement.

The club has had a good return from these players, particularly in terms of fitness.
A club needs plenty of cattle to get the job done and it's obvious the coach trusts them to do what's required within a 22 man squad. As long as players rank in the top 12-10 for the team several times per season, there is no reason to doubt their abilities.

So on this basis, Nathan seems likely to continue but Mitch may need a big game soon or find ways to lift his confidence IMO.

[divvydan]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

Correct me if I am wrong, but he is a former track and field long jumper right? Certainly powerful, great agility and hard at it.

From when Wood was drafted:

Wood has jumped 1.90m in the high jump, won a state championship and jumped 13.85m in the triple jump, and has stopped the clock at 51secs in the 400m.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

White man can jump.

[becmatty]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

In regards to Eagleton and Hahn ( two players who seem to get singled out a great deal here ) , IMO (humbly ) you are only as good as your last three games.

Nathan performed 12th, 11th and 9th best in consecutive games.
You would also have to say that his performance is fair - average / ok and improving.
Clearly he is not performing badly ( also clearly in our best 22 ) but average / well / improving.


I feel it is a trend for fans to want to burn through players to find the next big thing.
It's not a computer game we are playing. You can't just swap and change on a whim - you have to have faith in players and build on mistakes and aim for improvement.

The club has had a good return from these players, particularly in terms of fitness.
A club needs plenty of cattle to get the job done and it's obvious the coach trusts them to do what's required within a 22 man squad. As long as players rank in the top 12-10 for the team several times per season, there is no reason to doubt their abilities.

So on this basis, Nathan seems likely to continue but Mitch may need a big game soon or find ways to lift his confidence IMO.

Well said GD.

I would say however, that you're only as good as your last game. With so many players itching to get back in the team, Rocket demands sustained excellence. If players feel that they can have a bad game here and there and live off reputation, then it breeds complacency, even if just a hint of it.

How often to maligned players and out of form teams suddenly lift when they are put on notice or their career is on the line. This suggests that performance and mental approach are inextricably linked and judging a player on their last performance in isolation will ensure sustained intensity and workrate (and hopefully dreamteam points!)...

On that note, Eagleton's intensity and performance has been good and well deserved of is spot. Agreed Mitch is off the boil though. In fact, I am officially putting him on notice...

[mjp]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

I feel it is a trend for fans to want to burn through players to find the next big thing.
It's not a computer game we are playing. You can't just swap and change on a whim - you have to have faith in players and build on mistakes and aim for improvement.

I think what you will find if you do a bit of a search that the same comments being made about both Nathan Eagleton and Mitch Hahn now are simply repeats of the last 2-3 years of conversations. The same questions about their shortcomings have been asked for a long time now - the difference is that the positives of each player are no longer quite so compelling and accordingly there are now a few more singers in the chorus.

My thoughts are pretty clear and have been repeated on here constantly:

- Barry Hall has taken Mitch Hahn's spot in the side. Mitch needs to find another role to play/another way to contribute and he needs to do it now. He is too slow to provide effective defensive pressure in the forward line, doesn't get the ball enough to be a mid and is unproven down back...and his field kicking remains an issue.

I do think there is some kind of spot for him as a 40% game-time player up forward who has to hit some bodies and just attack the contest...but that is all I see. Unfortunately he doesn't get to play on Zac Dawson every week and other defenders make life a bit tougher.

Again, the problem is that we cannot play all of the forwards in our side and have a balanced, running side - Hall, Johnson, Hill, Higgins, Gia, Aker, Stack, Hahn etc etc etc...they don't all fit, we need more runners and when Ward is fit someone is going to have to go. It is going to be tight for Mitch.

- Eagleton I am not fussed about. He has a worrying habit of playing his best against the bottom sides and not getting a kick against top sides...but this is a career long trend. I have less faith in the youngsters than most on here and am quite satisfied that is his playing the role he has been selected for.

As an aside, no-one is burning through players looking for the next big thing. Unless Eagleton only playing 250games is representative of someone being 'burnt through' without receiving adequate opportunity.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

I agree Mofra - Hargrave and Wood both need to play...and double that sentiment if the whole 'Harbrow as a midfielder' experiment continues.

Do you think it should/ will?

Last week was helped out by the fact that WC don't play a small/ nimble forward, but in 3 of our next 4 games we face Hawthorn (Rioli or Hooper), Carlton (Betts) & Fremantle (Ballantyne) so would it be correct to assume that Jarrod will head back to a BP? Or do we play Wood, Picken or Hargrave as the small defender to allow this experiment to continue?

Even if Harbrow is required on a small defender I still think having Wood and Shaggy playing well can potentially free up Gilbee at times to play further up the ground. Gilbee with the ball in his hands in the midfield is a big win for us.

If Wood can continue on with the job after a good first few games, and Shaggy can regain some form, then things are looking very good for us. Hargrave Morris and Picken can all take smalls if we want to throw a curveball and release Harbrow, ( or if he is getting beaten by his opponent like in the Collingwood game )

It's Hahn and Stack I think that are under the most pressure to keep their spots.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

As an aside, no-one is burning through players looking for the next big thing. Unless Eagleton only playing 250games is representative of someone being 'burnt through' without receiving adequate opportunity.

As the stats show, Two games ago, Mitch was 6th best player in the team out of 22 - measured in DT points. So clearly, something worked well that particular day.

I'm not a Mitch Fan or a hater. I simply look at the stats.

MJP mentioned "He is too slow to provide effective defensive pressure in the forward line" ( Hahn ).
I would say he would be as fast as Barry at least and Barry provides good defensive pressure in the forward line. So I can't really agree with this argument.

[azabob]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

As the stats show, Two games ago, Mitch was 6th best player in the team measured in DT points. So clearly, something worked well that day.

Surely you can't be serious trying to justify a players position in the team based on Dream Team points?

Dream team points are based on possessions which is a useless indicator of how a player is going. How many DT points does Morris get?

Mitch Hahn isn't in the team to rack up 30 touches he is in the team for his hardness at the ball and at the contest and for his defensive efforts - Of late he is struggling to get to the contest.

How many points does he get for those efforts in the dream team scoreboard?

[mjp]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

Surely you can't be serious trying to justify a players position in the team based on Dream Team points?

Given he keeps referring to them I think it is pretty clear that he is serious.

[mjp]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

MJP mentioned "He is too slow to provide effective defensive pressure in the forward line" ( Hahn ).
I would say he would be as fast as Barry at least and Barry provides good defensive pressure in the forward line. So I can't really agree with this argument.

I disagree he is as quick as Hall, but if he is then we have an altogether bigger problem - he doesn't want to do it.

[Doc26]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

In regards to Eagleton and Hahn ( two players who seem to get singled out a great deal here ) , IMO (humbly ) you are only as good as your last three games.

So let's break it down

Dream Team points are measured thus
Kicks: 3 points
Handballs: 2 points
Mark: 3 points
Tackles: 4 points
Free kicks for: 1 point
Free kicks against: -3 points
Hitouts: 1 point
Goals: 6 points
Behinds: 1 point

Clearly Dream team points are skewed heavily toward goals. Clearly, not everyone in the team is meant to score them, having other roles. However, these are two players that should be able to kick set shots and convert. So no excuses.

In the last three games Mitch has been 16th, then 6th, then 17th in our team.
You would have to say then that his performance is below average - average / ok.
On these statistics you would say his form is fluctuating.
He is not performing badly ( clearly in our best 22 ) but average / below average.

Nathan performed 12th, 11th and 9th best in consecutive games.
You would also have to say that his performance is fair - average / ok and improving.
Clearly he is not performing badly ( also clearly in our best 22 ) but average / well / improving.

Ghost Dog, you are aware that Dream Team does not factor in any disposal effectiveness and the only defensive stat it considers is a tackle, that is, for DT it's primarily about the number of stats, with a player rewarded even if every one of their stats happened to go down the throat of the opposition. It simply cannot be used as a means of assessing a player's value or contribution.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

Ghost Dog, you are aware that Dream Team does not factor in any disposal effectiveness and the only defensive stat it considers is a tackle, that is, for DT it's primarily about the number of stats, with a player rewarded even if every one of their stats happened to go down the throat of the opposition. It simply cannot be used as a means of assessing a player's value or contribution.

Sure, that's why I factored in the last three games.
Throw me your preferred stats for measurement and I'll do it again.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

Surely you can't be serious trying to justify a players position in the team based on Dream Team points?


?

Not in a single game. But over a series of games for a player that does work in the middle of the ground it can be taken as a measure of increased or decreased general influence or form. An AFL player won't kick it down the throat of the opposition every kick or they would not be in the team.
I would much rather play a team who had a high series of DT points over time than one that had low DT points over time. IM HUMBLE O

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

Surely you can't be serious trying to justify a players position in the team based on Dream Team points?

Dream team points are based on possessions which is a useless indicator of how a player is going. How many DT points does Morris get?

Mitch Hahn isn't in the team to rack up 30 touches he is in the team for his hardness at the ball and at the contest and for his defensive efforts - Of late he is struggling to get to the contest.

How many points does he get for those efforts in the dream team scoreboard?

It's not the points that count. It is the rise and fall over time. Take Stack for example. If he scored low in DT points week in week out, but everyone was satisfied with his role, then one would assume his stats to remain at the same level, relative to his role on field.

If however, his form dropped off, people would complain. We could then take a look at his stats OVER TIME and if this perceived drop in form correlated to a drop in numbers you could say that people did not really just have an axe to grind, that there was a real issue.
Backs like Morris are different and agreed, defensive efforts need other measures. However, Hahn and Eagleton do not usually play in the backline. But hey. It's just my uneducated theory and by all means, have a laugh if this seems totally batty.

[chef]

Re: Round 14 - WOOF Selection Table

It's not the points that count. It is the rise and fall over time. Take Stack for example. If he scored low in DT points week in week out, but everyone was satisfied with his role, then one would assume his stats to remain at the same level, relative to his role on field.

If however, his form dropped off, people would complain. We could then take a look at his stats OVER TIME and if this perceived drop in form correlated to a drop in numbers you could say that people did not really just have an axe to grind, that there was a real issue.
Backs like Morris are different and agreed, defensive efforts need other measures. However, Hahn and Eagleton do not usually play in the backline. But hey. It's just my uneducated theory and by all means, have a laugh if this seems totally batty.

Can't forwards and mids can have defensive efforts too?.