Win or lose?

[chef]

Re: Win or lose?

I am not taking a cheap shot here 'chef' but I do think you've got to go away and have look in the mirror. You may love what you see, you may not

Yes, you are. I don't care if you disagree with me but there's no reason to be a flog and get personal about it.

Do I need to put up with this MODS?

[GVGjr]

Re: Win or lose?

Better draft position.

Let me pose a few questions

What incentive is there for our supporters to go to a game if we are deliberately intending to not give a 100% effort?
Would you make the drive from the bush to the Etihad to watch it knowing that they are just going through the motions?
Would our sponsors be happy? Would the players just accept it?

How do you ask a player to dig deeper for an extra effort next year when he knows your weren't 100% committed yourself the previous year?

I don't think we are good enough to pick and choose which games we are intending to have a crack at or not. To me there is a lot of downside and minimal upside in tanking games and I don't think you can flick the switches like you seem to be suggesting.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Win or lose?

Sorry mate, I'll PM you for approval before I start a thread next time

That would be great Chef!
I appreciate your passion as a supporter and willingness for us to do anything to get ahead...but.
Come on seriously. Pick 15 or 12.
There are so many variables in footy.
That's a big call, to throw a game of footy and to piss off sponsors and fans for a player for a kid that may or may not be better two or three years down the track.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Win or lose?

Jon Ralph in the Herald Sun has written a similar article about Richmond:

Loss may be a victory for Tigers

Love the last line of that article, 'In 2009, Jordan McMahon's last-minute goal against the Demons meant Richmond finished second last and the Demons got the priority pick to recruit Jack Trengove and Tom Scully.'

Wonder how kicking that last goal worked out for Jordan

[chef]

Re: Win or lose?

Let me pose a few questions

What incentive is there for our supporters to go to a game if we are deliberately intending to not give a 100% effort?
Would you make the drive from the bush to the Etihad to watch it knowing that they are just going through the motions?
Would our sponsors be happy? Would the players just accept it?

How do you ask a player to dig deeper for an extra effort next year when he knows your weren't 100% committed yourself the previous year?

I don't think we are good enough to pick and choose which games we are intending to have a crack at or not. To me there is a lot of downside and minimal upside in tanking games and I don't think you can flick the switches like you seem to be suggesting.

Fair enough GVGjr, thanks for the mature response.

I'm not advocating that the players don't try(I would love us to fill our side with our fringe players to see who's worth keeping and who's not), just that not winning on the weekend could become a blessing in disguise come draft day.

And in terms of driving from the bush to watch them p[lay, as long as they have a red hot go I'm happy. To me winning isn't the only reason I watch them play.

[1eyedog]

Re: Win or lose?

When you think its a good idea to lose to Freo at home with a very young team selected then you need a reality check.

I am not taking a cheap shot here 'chef' but I do think you've got to go away and have look in the mirror. You may love what you see, you may not

We are not talking about gaining an extra top 5 pick here but a minor upgrade. Further, we won't know the difference between pick 12 and 15 for another 3-4 years, and often at 15 our recruiter will get the 12th player they want.

Tutt, Roughy, Scho, Dahl, Jones, Grant etc etc etc will get far more out of successfully executing the game plan and beating Freo than they will out of tanking. It is very important to finish the worst year we've had in a while strongly.

Huh? He's asking a question about what is honestly best for the club. He's not asking you to profile him.

[GVGjr]

Re: Win or lose?

I'm not advocating that the players don't try(I would love us to fill our side with our fringe players to see who's worth keeping and who's not), just that not winning on the weekend could become a blessing in disguise come draft day.

And in terms of driving from the bush to watch them p[lay, as long as they have a red hot go I'm happy. To me winning isn't the only reason I watch them play.

That's not really what I'm asking.

I'm asking you if you would still make the drive to Etihad if you knew for sure a fringe team was being selected with the main purpose to not win the game?

We know there is a chance we will lose any game but if it's known that an intentional loss is been orchestrated, no matter the endeavours of the players selected, I doubt many would still make the trip. Sponsors wouldn't be pleased by it either and I doubt I would dig as deep with my membership the following year if I thought the team was orchestrating losses.

I think you are a mile off what is right for the club with your focus on tanking the game just to move a couple of positions up the draft order and I think the ramifications of such a ploy would be a disaster.

I get that the upside of a loss is a slightly better draft position but that should not be the intention.

[ledge]

Re: Win or lose?

People say we need to win for the kids confidence, I will paint the other side:
1 Its the last game of the year that has nothing riding on it.
2 If we win or lose will they even remember it at the start of next year ?
3 A loss can be a better thing than a win, not just for the draft but for the future eg, the kids work harder because they dont like losing and are driven more.
4 A win well glad that seasons over and at least we won the last game.

An example Geelong after the loss to the Hawks in the GF vowed never to lose to the Hawks and havent since. Okay it was a GF but it has steeled the players for the future.
Sometimes a loss can mean more than just a draft choice or losing 4 points, it can be a blessing in disguise.
I am not saying we lose deliberate I dont condone that and would not be happy but it does seem a loss has more meaning than a win in some instances.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Re: Win or lose?

I understand the thinking behind the question, but basically, I don't think selling your soul is worth an upgrade from 15 to 13. Heck, it's barely worth it to secure a no.1 pick.

The thing about selling your soul is that it's really hard to get it back -- Carlton tanked in the middle of last decade and they're still proppy when facing a real challenge and barely in the top 4. Melbourne aren't going anywhere for a while, and Richmond.. well. Yes, Collingwood technically 'tanked' for Daisy and Pendlebury, but Malthouse still took 11 years to snag a flag (and I think their money and Arizona training has more to do with their success than draft order), and Hawthorn owes more to smart/lucky drafting with Cyril and Buddy, who were both available to other clubs, than tanking per se.

Only West Coast with the NicNat draft really tanked and succeeded I think, but Worsfold barely survived that, and they didn't really have a soul to begin with anyway, having traded it a long time ago in the Cousins drugs era for a flag, so they don't really count.

Wow, 11 whole years to win a flag.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Win or lose?

Fight like hell for the jumper.

[Dry Rot]

Re: Win or lose?

Well, IIRC the difference between 2 draft spots a few years back was Everitt at 11 or Riewoldt at 13.

I'll be cheering for a win this week.

FWIW, may be mixing up my years, but didn't we miss out by one draft spot to the Swans for their Jetta?

[Sedat]

Re: Win or lose?

Prefer to win and give Hall and Hudson the send-off their contributions to our club deserve. In any event, our recruiting manager probably has the nominal 50th ranked player in his sights for our first pick so it won't matter whether we have pick 12 or 17.

[Dry Rot]

Re: Win or lose?

Prefer to win and give Hall and Hudson the send-off their contributions to our club deserve. In any event, our recruiting manager probably has the nominal 50th ranked player in his sights for our first pick so it won't matter whether we have pick 12 or 17.

Good point.

Hall and Hudson deserve to be carried off the ground of their last game, winners.

[MrMahatma]

Re: Win or lose?

A couple of retirements. Players trying to impress any coach in waiting. Williams trying to press a claim for the top job.

This will be our biggest win of the year.

[chef]

Re: Win or lose?

I'm asking you if you would still make the drive to Etihad if you knew for sure a fringe team was being selected with the main purpose to not win the game?

Yes(to the first bit), as long as they are out there giving 100% I'm happy.

No to the second bit. It all comes down to effort with me.