Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

[Maddog37]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

If Ruffy keeps improving as a defender then he may be a gun CHB. Quite a few forwards now are massive units in the Tippett and Hawkins mould so it makes sense to have key defenders the same size.

He seems to be more involved and switched on when he plays down back.

[Desipura]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

BJ I must say you surprised me with your post suggesting Campbell could become a better ruck man in the future and that he is already a better mark.
When you suggested you would look at trading Minson I nearly fell off my chair!
I thought you were in the we must keep Minson at all costs camp.

If we could somehow trade Minson we would put ourselves in a very strong draft position which may give us access to one of the best 17yo in the land.

We have a surplus of ruckmen, we are seeing Minson perform at his best currently, it's not like he can turn a game on it's head and win a game for us.
If it meant we could get a Hogan, would that not address one of our key forward issues. Jones should be able to fill the other position in the forward line.
Or a Martin could potentially get people through the gates. Is that not what we want, some genuine excitement on our list? If he is a once in a generation player I say we must do all we can as long as we do not lose an A grader.

[mjp]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I might be on my own, but I see Roughead as being miles ahead of Jones (and Grant, Cordy, Campbell etc.). I wouldn't seek to trade him, but Grant is probably one name that could come up.

I agree with you on Roughead vs Minson but that is another story.

Trade Grant? The problem with that - and I have actually suggested it before so let me disagree with myself here - is that he is a relatively unique player on our list whereas we have other ruckman. I agree that we need to make a call on Grant one way or the other and either play him or get rid of him (like we should have with Josh Hill at the end of 2010) but think the argument to trade Grant is a different question to the one that sees us with 4 ruckman potentially ALL of whom (if Campbell is upgraded) are on our primary list.

Basically, we shouldn't head into 2013 with Minson, Campbell, Roughead and Cordy all on the primary list. We just shouldn't.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

So the number one AFL ruckman for hitouts, and second in clearances (amongst rucks) will be surpassed by a 21 year old rookie who barely gets a kick.

Yeah - maybe not in pure stats, but in value to the team. Will gets the taps but he just swats 'em. He doesn't follow up his work naturally (although he is better this year than ever before), is not great on the spread and rarely clunks the big, important marks. Campbell is a soft-handed ruckman who guides the ball and follows up naturally. With a bit more work on his craft and a full pre-season under his belt, he'll be better able to contest all over the ground for four quarters. By the end of next season I reckon he'll be giving the the team a more rounded contribution than we get currently from Will. Another one we're going to see a lot more from is Fletcher Roberts. I've seen a few of his VFL games as well as his senior games and gee, I like the way he goes about it. Still very raw, but he is just a natural footballer. With a few more kilos and a few more games, he could be a very valuable KP player, either forward or back. He's only just 19, so there is plenty of upside. Like Campbell, I reckon he's not that far off putting it all together and making a big impact.

[Mofra]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

We need some run and carry players who can kick coming off half-back and we need them pretty quickly.

Suban from Freo wants to return to Vic doesn't he?

We'd probably hope Wood can stay injury free and learn to find the ball a bit more, and with JJ developing we may only have to find a third to give us some serious rebound (assuming father-time catches Bobby and he starts to miss games next year).

[Bornadog]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

Basically, we shouldn't head into 2013 with Minson, Campbell, Roughead and Cordy all on the primary list. We just shouldn't.

This I agree with which means Campbell stays as a rookie for another year and lets see how it pans out. I can't see the club trying to offload one of these guys just yet.

[LongWait]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I agree with you on Roughead vs Minson but that is another story.

Trade Grant? The problem with that - and I have actually suggested it before so let me disagree with myself here - is that he is a relatively unique player on our list whereas we have other ruckman. I agree that we need to make a call on Grant one way or the other and either play him or get rid of him (like we should have with Josh Hill at the end of 2010) but think the argument to trade Grant is a different question to the one that sees us with 4 ruckman potentially ALL of whom (if Campbell is upgraded) are on our primary list.

Basically, we shouldn't head into 2013 with Minson, Campbell, Roughead and Cordy all on the primary list. We just shouldn't.

Correct me if I'm wrong here MJP, but isn't the conventional wisdom that AFL teams need 4 ruckmen on their lists. I know that Malthouse believes this - I've heard him speak about it at a fund-raiser.

[Sedat]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I know that Malthouse believes this - I've heard him speak about it at a fund-raiser.

Whanever he might have said at the fundraiser, Malthouse certainly didn't practice what he preached. If he did, he wouldn't have had absolute plodders like Steven McKee (in 2002-3) and Guy Richards (in 2007) as his No.1 rucks in years that they were close to a flag. It took Darren Jolly's wife to threaten her husband with divorce if they didn't move back to Melbourne for Malthouse to finally get around to trading for a decent ruckman, and hey presto they win a flag.

I reckon 4 rucks on the primary list is 1 too many. Happy to have 3 on the main list and 1 rookie.

[jeemak]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I'm OK with having all of Cordy, Roughead, Campbell and Minson on the Primary List.

Cordy isn't likely to be played as a first ruck throughout his career, and is going to be groomed as a forward who pinch hits in the ruck at most. The next year for him, and possibly the year after is going to be about him learning how to be the second or bail out option in the forward line. As he gets stronger, the rucking side will be developed over time. I don't think we can discount how tricky the forward pinch hitting in the ruck position is to master, or how valuable it is to be a successful side.

Roughead is being groomed as a KPD whether we like it or not. I believe he'll be a very handy player in defense, as he is smart, cool and will get stronger. He's got the potential to be a very good ruckman of course, though at the moment I think the club is concerned about the reliability of our KPD stocks and need Roughead to develop there very quickly.

Campbell is still developing, and is a long way off being a regular senior contributor as a first 22 member. Though, if Minson goes down for a three or four week period, I think we need him around to fill the gap rather than exposing Roughead, Cordy or Jones in that area.

Minson is an interesting proposition. If we trade him now we're probably likely to receive the most value for him we're ever likely to. If he does get moved on, then our plans for Roughead need to change, and he needs to play first ruck. If this happens, we need to be prepared for Talia and Roberts to be exposed. At this stage, I have an odd feeling that tells me Marko might be in a bit of trouble going forward as these two develop, especially if Williams can get his body together to play regular football once again.

Essentially, I don't want to see a lack of ruck stock on the primary list being the reason behind exposing players who aren't ready or suitable for ruck duties (mainly Cordy and Jones) for a couple of weeks at a time, a few times a year.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I'm OK with having all of Cordy, Roughead, Campbell and Minson on the Primary List.

Cordy isn't likely to be played as a first ruck throughout his career, and is going to be groomed as a forward who pinch hits in the ruck at most. The next year for him, and possibly the year after is going to be about him learning how to be the second or bail out option in the forward line. As he gets stronger, the rucking side will be developed over time. I don't think we can discount how tricky the forward pinch hitting in the ruck position is to master, or how valuable it is to be a successful side.

Roughead is being groomed as a KPD whether we like it or not. I believe he'll be a very handy player in defense, as he is smart, cool and will get stronger. He's got the potential to be a very good ruckman of course, though at the moment I think the club is concerned about the reliability of our KPD stocks and need Roughead to develop there very quickly.

Campbell is still developing, and is a long way off being a regular senior contributor as a first 22 member. Though, if Minson goes down for a three or four week period, I think we need him around to fill the gap rather than exposing Roughead, Cordy or Jones in that area.

Minson is an interesting proposition. If we trade him now we're probably likely to receive the most value for him we're ever likely to. If he does get moved on, then our plans for Roughead need to change, and he needs to play first ruck. If this happens, we need to be prepared for Talia and Roberts to be exposed. At this stage, I have an odd feeling that tells me Marko might be in a bit of trouble going forward as these two develop, especially if Williams can get his body together to play regular football once again.

Essentially, I don't want to see a lack of ruck stock on the primary list being the reason behind exposing players who aren't ready or suitable for ruck duties (mainly Cordy and Jones) for a couple of weeks at a time, a few times a year.

You reckon?? Check out some of his contested marking in the Geelong game. Took some bloody great grabs. Particularly one in the back half that was the first link in a goal. Not afaid to get down at ground level either.

[jeemak]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

You reckon?? Check out some of his contested marking in the Geelong game. Took some bloody great grabs. Particularly one in the back half that was the first link in a goal. Not afaid to get down at ground level either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Georgiades

Consistency is a much harder task to master than putting together one or two solid games or glimpses in a debut season.

Campbell might benefit from our continuing development of talls, that sees us playing all of Roughead, Cordy, Minson and himself in the same side. If Cordy or Roughead have a great preseason and can demonstrate the ability to hold down forward and defensive posts respectively, while helping out in the ruck Campbell might be stuck at Williamstown waiting for an injury to materialise.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Georgiades


Consistency is a much harder task to master than putting together one or two solid games or glimpses in a debut season.

Campbell might benefit from our continuing development of talls, that sees us playing all of Roughead, Cordy, Minson and himself in the same side. If Cordy or Roughead have a great preseason and can demonstrate the ability to hold down forward and defensive posts respectively, while helping out in the ruck Campbell might be stuck at Williamstown waiting for an injury to materialise.

Good start though eh? Anyway, impressed with Campbell in Ballarat V North in the NAB, and Geelong last week, also the handfull of Willy games I have seen. He can take grabs and kicks straight, can ruck ok. What's not to like?

[jeemak]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

Good start though eh? Anyway, impressed with Campbell in Ballarat V North in the NAB, and Geelong last week, also the handfull of Willy games I have seen. He can take grabs and kicks straight, can ruck ok. What's not to like?

There's plenty to like GD. But, I think we need to be realistic about his performances to this point of his career, and just how bloody hard it is for players like him to take the next step up to be senior contributors on a regular basis.

It might come down to effort, fortune, talent, injury or coaching decisions to determine whether he's first 22 material. All we can ask of him is to get in good shape over the preseason and work his arse off and take his opportunities.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

There's plenty to like GD. But, I think we need to be realistic about his performances to this point of his career, and just how bloody hard it is for players like him to take the next step up to be senior contributors on a regular basis.

It might come down to effort, fortune, talent, injury or coaching decisions to determine whether he's first 22 material. All we can ask of him is to get in good shape over the preseason and work his arse off and take his opportunities.

For sure.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

No doubt 21yo Campbell is behind 27yo Minson. But he isnt terrible for a 21yo ruck. In a year or two he will be an asset I reckon, whether thats in trade or in case of injuries, or whether he just turns out to be bloody good.

Personally I place a premium of big guys who can take big contested marks around the ground, and he can.

Maybe if he was a tall forward.
I also dispute the fact that he has passed Minson in marking ability. 1 match of 3 contested marks is all there is at the moment
As a ruck the priority is to get to as many contests as possible and provide some influence.
I heard someone say that Campbell is a soft handed ruck so will be ruck than Minson. All well and good when there is no opposition or no contest. None of the rucking stats show he is or will be a better than Minson.