Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

[azabob]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

I remain baffled though by talk about lacking mid-sized forwards both by McCartney and on this thread. Didn't we play THREE of them on the weekend - Gia, Higgins and Dickson? And couldn't your argue we played FIVE (add Veszpremi and Murphy who also went down there to the list). And didn't a SIXTH (Skinner) travel? And yet another - Sherman - get dropped?

??

This.

I immediately thought of Dickson, Murph and Vez when I heard that comment.

All those players listed have not been anywhere near consistent as a goal kicking mid size forward in 2012, either due to playing in the back half (Murphy, Vez), or injured or struggling (see rest).

I'm thinking it is a case of Rockets theory on big men - Quality not QTY.

[ledge]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

All those players listed have not been anywhere near consistent as a goal kicking mid size forward in 2012, either due to playing in the back half (Murphy, Vez), or injured or struggling (see rest).

I'm thinking it is a case of Rockets theory on big men - Quality not QTY.

I tend to think it was more the delivery into the forward line that wasnt helping the first few games, it seemed to be improving until the Sydney game. 2 steps forward one step back maybe?

[Mantis]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

I tend to think it was more the delivery into the forward line that wasnt helping the first few games, it seemed to be improving until the Sydney game. 2 steps forward one step back maybe?

More like one step foward, 3 steps back.

The confidence of all involved would have taken a severe hammering after a loss like that, and probably has a few wondering to if we are heading down the right path...

[LongWait]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

If you find 'lack of canniness' offensive, I apologise. I thought it was a relatively harmless off-hand comment, and certainly didn't mean it in a personal/offensive manner (as I meant it purely from a tactical perspective -- I was quite clear that I believe that he has great strengths as well), but I know that everyone has different standards in terms of language usage and it's easy for different people to react to different words differently, especially with a relatively 'old school' word like 'canny'.

Thanks for explaining it as well as you have, and again, if I caused offence, I apologise.

I was a bit too strident in tackling you on this - playing the man, albeit without meaning to, is something we all do from time to time and I'm probably guilty as well.

Thanks for being a decent bloke about it.

[jeemak]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

All those players listed have not been anywhere near consistent as a goal kicking mid size forward in 2012, either due to playing in the back half (Murphy, Vez), or injured or struggling (see rest).

I'm thinking it is a case of Rockets theory on big men - Quality not QTY.

Yep.

Who out of Veszpremi, Higgins, Gia, Murphy, Grant and Sherman inspires confidence on a long term basis to be a weekly contributor up forward?

In a side with good delivery, I'm confident Veszpremi, Grant and Higgins can be multiple goal kickers (that is, 1,5-2 per game) on a weekly basis, though I really think once some space opens up in the midfield we're likely to see Higgins play more through there anyway, while Veszpremi is likely to play as a utility throughout his career.

Once Gia goes we'll be screaming for a quality replacement, and I think we'll find out fairly quickly just how valuable a player he was once he's gone.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

Yep.

Who out of Veszpremi, Higgins, Gia, Murphy, Grant and Sherman inspires confidence on a long term basis to be a weekly contributor up forward?

In a side with good delivery, I'm confident Veszpremi, Grant and Higgins can be multiple goal kickers (that is, 1,5-2 per game) on a weekly basis, though I really think once some space opens up in the midfield we're likely to see Higgins play more through there anyway, while Veszpremi is likely to play as a utility throughout his career.

Once Gia goes we'll be screaming for a quality replacement, and I think we'll find out fairly quickly just how valuable a player he was once he's gone.

Can't see Missy having the pace (or frankly the fortitude) to hold down an effective midfield slot. As much as BMac talks him up I just don't see any upside.

Gia's unfortunately a ghost already and the proof of your words is what we are seeing in our forward 50. We need to let Dahlhaus be a small forward again for awhile to get some crumbing goals happening. Cordy's contesting well but in pulling Dahl up the ground, and with neither Missy nor Gia having pace, I rekon we are missing 1-2 goals a game which we desperately require. It's not a panacea but it would give us back 6-12 points a game perhaps?

[jeemak]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

A part of me thinks Higgins is being played where he is right now because we haven't got anyone else for the time being, and also because we've got certain spots in our midfield occupied by players that can not and should not be dropped but can't play anywhere else.

I'm not convinced his pace or lack thereof will be too much of a concern, though he needs to demonstrate he has the intensity, the durability and stamina to contribute as the game wears on. His ability to take a mark and use the ball would be beneficial to us IMO, and he would add some diversity to a midfield that will be filled with players who are a little similar for my liking (Smith, Liberatore, Wallis, Boyd).

I think you're right with your comments on Gia, in a side that doesn't deliver well he's going to find it very hard to be effective. Moving Dahl deep will help Gia as well, at the moment his oponent doesn't have much to worry about to keep him out of the game once the ball hits the deck.

[AndrewP6]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

Just to clarify, are you suggesting that McCartney can't coach with authority because he has never played at AFL level?

Fairly simplistic view, if that's the case.

Might be, time will tell. If he can get us further than the PF's we recently played, all well and good.

[SonofScray]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

Higgins plays his best and most valuable footy as a forward. The work he does loose across half back could be done better by, for longer and more cheaply, at a guess, by a Wood, Howard, Tutt etc than by him.

We need him to get the ball a dozen times, kick straight and get scores on the board. Like what Hudson, Garlick, Robbins, and Smith have been able to do in recent years.

[Greystache]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

This.

I immediately thought of Dickson, Murph and Vez when I heard that comment.

Murphy is the tallest of those 3 at 186cm, and none of them have a great deal of pace (Murphy again probably the quickest). I consider a mid-sized forward a 190ish cm player who can take a strong mark but is still quick enough to play defensive. Basically a Jack Darling, or who I believe he was specifically referring to Stuart Crameri. Crameri was a mature rookie pick, so it's not unrealistic to think we could unearth a similar player without having to invest a 1st round pick.

Grant fits the job description to a degree, but his lack of body strength and consistency of effort means he tends to play more like a flashy small crumbing forward.

Gia and Higgins, and so far to a lesser degree Dickson, play like very short key forwards. If they don't take the mark they're out of the contest.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

Murphy is the tallest of those 3 at 186cm, and none of them have a great deal of pace (Murphy again probably the quickest). I consider a mid-sized forward a 190ish cm player who can take a strong mark but is still quick enough to play defensive. Basically a Jack Darling, or who I believe he was specifically referring to Stuart Crameri. Crameri was a mature rookie pick, so it's not unrealistic to think we could unearth a similar player without having to invest a 1st round pick.

Grant fits the job description to a degree, but his lack of body strength and consistency of effort means he tends to play more like a flashy small crumbing forward.

Gia and Higgins, and so far to a lesser degree Dickson, play like very short key forwards. If they don't take the mark they're out of the contest.

Gia is ok at getting free kicks against taller opponents and body positioning. not too sure about that one. Dickson can dive on a spill and take a snap. Plenty of strength to burst a pack. Wondering if Shaun is injured. Just looks a bit slow.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

Gia is ok at getting free kicks against taller opponents and body positioning. not too sure about that one. Dickson can dive on a spill and take a snap. Plenty of strength to burst a pack. Wondering if Shaun is injured. Just looks a bit slow.

If you are relying on free kicks to gain possession of the ball, you're in big trouble.

Gia is very, very footy smart and so he can still impact games of football sporadically (Eg. v Collingwood) but his mobility has decreased significantly and as we know, he's always been poor defensively. It will be interesting to see how he can continue to contribute next year -- I really do think giving him a 2 year contract was a mistake.

Dickson needs to improve his endurance so that he can give repeat efforts because at the moment, he really does play like a small key forward. I have faith in Dickson though, I think he can be a player. He's clean with the ball and attacks contests, but he just cannot do this on a regular basis or 'work over' his opponent because he doesn't have the fitness base yet.

Higgins has looked incredibly slow for 3 years -- nothing to do with injury. I still don't think his fitness is where it needs to be, either. Again, he is reasonably smart, so he's been able to kick a few goals on the back of that, but realistically that isn't enough. He is caught playing from behind, can't apply defensive pressure when the opposition spread and I don't think he attacks aerial contests as hard as he could at times. He was a fantastic overhead mark when he first came to the club, but he struggles with that now.

Might be worthwhile isolating Higgins deep as a FF for the remainder of the year. Though, with Cordy & co in their development phases, that can't/won't happen. For mine, I just don't think Higgins can push up the field. He gets lost in traffic a bit, and is just too slow -- maybe slower than Cross.

As a side note, I really wish we went after Saad. I was disappointed when St. Kilda snapped him up, I felt he was the type of player we really need and we could have got him cheap.

[Greystache]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

Dickson needs to improve his endurance so that he can give repeat efforts because at the moment, he really does play like a small key forward. I have faith in Dickson though, I think he can be a player. He's clean with the ball and attacks contests, but he just cannot do this on a regular basis or 'work over' his opponent because he doesn't have the fitness base yet.

I agree, I think he'll get there and has been a good pick up. I'm not sure if it's been noticed, but he's lost a considerable amount of weight since he was drafted, I think with another preseason his fitness base will be adequate

Higgins has looked incredibly slow for 3 years -- nothing to do with injury. I still don't think his fitness is where it needs to be, either. Again, he is reasonably smart, so he's been able to kick a few goals on the back of that, but realistically that isn't enough. He is caught playing from behind, can't apply defensive pressure when the opposition spread and I don't think he attacks aerial contests as hard as he could at times. He was a fantastic overhead mark when he first came to the club, but he struggles with that now.

When he first arrived at the club he had 3 elite attributes, he was a deadly kick for goal both on the run and as a set shot, he was ruthless at the contest, and he was a very strong overhead mark for his size. These days those 3 areas are probably his weakest areas, I don't know how much injuries have played their part, but he appears from the outside to think AFL football requires little more than an occasional bit of smarts. I have real doubts over his future in the game.

Might be worthwhile isolating Higgins deep as a FF for the remainder of the year. Though, with Cordy & co in their development phases, that can't/won't happen. For mine, I just don't think Higgins can push up the field. He gets lost in traffic a bit, and is just too slow -- maybe slower than Cross.

No one is slower than Cross , but he's having his most effective season in years IMO.

As a side note, I really wish we went after Saad. I was disappointed when St. Kilda snapped him up, I felt he was the type of player we really need and we could have got him cheap.

I said at the time how much I wanted to chase Saad, and how disappointed I was we he went to St Kilda for next to nothing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

When he first arrived at the club he had 3 elite attributes, he was a deadly kick for goal both on the run and as a set shot, he was ruthless at the contest, and he was a very strong overhead mark for his size. These days those 3 areas are probably his weakest areas, I don't know how much injuries have played their part, but he appears from the outside to think AFL football requires little more than an occasional bit of smarts. I have real doubts over his future in the game.

No one is slower than Cross , but he's having his most effective season in years IMO.

This is what I don't understand; why has Higgins' skill level dropped off, and why has his overhead marking practically vanished? Granted -- his disposal seems to be better this year, but I remember him taking quite a few good grabs from his debut year up until 2009. He's rarely been able to take an overhead mark since. It was one of his great traits; he could mark the ball very well, but he was also a smart crumber that ran to the right positions.

He's just a polar opposite of the player he was a few years ago. I know injuries/confidence took their toll, but I find it astounding nonetheless. He was a classy, smooth mover -- now you're unsure what he's going to deliver.

I agree with you on Cross. Having a good season, has his role changed slightly? And just on that comparison, I think what compounds Higgins' lack of pace is the fact that he takes too long to make a decision with the ball in hand. That, and he doesn't naturally accelerate straight off the mark anymore. He took a mark v Sydney in the first quarter where his opponent slipped over, but then casually jogged off the mark as if he had 50 meters of space. By this stage his opponent had found his feet and then tackled him to dispose us of the ball.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Re: Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

As did St.Kilda, who also sat off us at the clearances and then thumped us when we turned it over.

So far we have beaten the 3 worst teams in the competition and one which is a bit of a basket case. And while being competitive and threatening at times in the rest we haven't been sharp enough to beat teams who are slightly better than us.

The rest of the season has a number of 50:50 games (including the next 2), a number that look like certain losses, but not too many where we look certain winners so it's going to be interesting to see how we finish the season off.

As with comments that Lantern has posted our in game coaching has been indifferent, I guess Macca is still probably coming to grips with being the 'ship steerer' on game day, but he needs to find his feet sooner rather than later... That fact that he has very little experience in the box to help him wouldn't make it any easier.

The lack of experience in the box, is a very valid point but we also need to give credit for the way we were able to challenge both last year's Grand Finalists, Geelong and Collingwood, with an inferior forward line which were brave efforts. The experiment of playing ruckman in Roughead and Cordy as forwards clearly hasn't worked. Jones similarly has been a big disappointment. I would give up on both Cordy and Jones for the moment and look at other key forward options. Roughead is clearly a budding ruckman and simply needs to be given added time in the ruck. I think the time is right to move Murphy back into our attack where apart from Dahlhaus we have sadly lacked any class. Higgins is too slow to keep playing as a forward and repeatedly plays from behind.
I would pump for Tom Hill at full forward. We really have nothing to lose but to look at other options. It might just work.