2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

[Bornadog]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

It's actually you who is vigorously challenging the current drafting of players who in fairness haven't been given the fullness of time to be accurately judged.

The reason I brought it up was throughout this thread, and other threads we keep reading about past drafting mistakes and list management that is now hurting us. How many years do we have to go back?

I am pointing out there are current drafting mistakes as well. I can also add a few more such as Pearce, and the jury still out on Jong. The only reason we have done well with the past couple of drafts is we had early draft picks, and the talent was there and even I could have picked a good one.

I hope for god sake these players improve or we are in for pain for a very long time.

[Bornadog]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

Very good points made. Some might be "sick of hearing about past mistakes" but it shouldn't be dismissed as an issue.

How about the current personnel at the club take some blame.

[LostDoggy]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

I wouldn't have Dahl, Roughie and Libba in that senior core that we are missing. They are the start and leaders of the future though.

Wood and Picken are decent players but nothing special and Higgins is average and overated.

Griffen, Cooney, Minson, Morris, Boyd, Murphy and Gia are that senior core, sadly about half are just about finished and struggle to influence a game.

Ward and Harbrow hurt, but they were yet another list management stuff up.

Still going to be more pain for another season or two.

Wood and Picken are having top seasons, Picken could well be in for the Real Charlie.

Griffen, Cooney Boyd and Morris struggling to influence a game? Drop one and watch the result. Likewise Bob and Gia.

Ward and Harbrow can be judged as list management stuff ups, but you'll never really know. Quite possible they were always going to leave, no matter what we did. We'll never know, but it's been enough years now we should be moving on.

Can only agree with your last sentence. And you know what? If we come out stronger at the end of it, I'll weather the pain.

How about the current personnel at the club take some blame.

Don't see anybody shirking it. Or did I miss the presses where McCartney blames Fantasia and Eade?

Yes they do. That's entirely the point. The dearth of reasonable talent in the mid range and mid games played range we've suffered from is precisely the reason we've been shithouse in recent seasons.

Youre on a hiding to nothing. They'll continue to defend everything Rocket touched, and if you try logic, all you'll get is “agree to disagree”.

Just thank God we here on WOOF don't run the club eh?

[Twodogs]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

Just thank God we here on WOOF don't run the club eh?

I dunno. I'd give it the old college try.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

My opinion on a few issues:

Past List Management:
Very poor. Should have had a detailed plan to be able to deal with the expansion clubs. For example, keeping on the older talent (Eagleton and Hahn especially) whilst upgrading the undeserving (Hooper and Mulligan) simply meant we didn't cut into the list deep enough. It was always going to sting us. In hindsight the Harbrow/Sherman situation was a major stuff up whilst recruiting fringe players (Djerrkerra, Veszpremi, Callan, Barlow etc.) was a pointless exercise. Then, with the few picks that we did have during these years when we needed to be implementing a long term strategy, we reached for both Howard and Tutt. The latter has been solid this season, but Howard's pick has hurt us a lot.

The short term strategy we had in these years has made it very difficult. However, it's time to stop focusing on these errors.

Current List Management:
It's been better, but we didn't cut deep enough last year and we are too patient with some players (Cordy and Howard). Despite having some good young talent on our list, unfortunately not all are developing as quickly as we'd like. For various reasons, players such as Jones (youngish - inconsistent), Grant (youngish - injuries), Roberts, Talia, Hrovat (injuries), Smith (injuries), Stringer (needs time), Campbell, Stevens (inconsistent), Young (inconsistent), Wallis (inconsistent) and probably a few more aren't where we'd like them to be.

Arguably we still haven't bothered to address our lack of key backs and key forwards, and keep drafting similar types. This would be my main criticism of the current management. We lack pace and skill, we lack gorilla defenders and we lack big targets to kick the ball to.

Question marks over the recruitment of Lower, Goodes, Darley and Fuller - but given the first 3 were all with late pick(s), hardly our biggest issues.

Problem Heading Forward:
We are still reliant on some of our older heads in Morris, Murphy and to lesser degrees Boyd, Gia. The first two are absolute keys to our side, and we don't have anybody on our list capable of replacing them. Both Morris/Murph won't be around when we hope to challenge. Boyd/Gia should be able to be replaced, but neither have been yet. Gia is still our smartest forward.

Not sure how long Cooney will be around, so potentially, in 3-4 years when we hope to challenge, we won't have the likes of Morris, Murphy, Boyd, Gia and Cooney. With them (currently) all playing relatively solid footy, we are miles off the pace. Without them, it could set us back a further couple of years if we don't get drastic improvement from our 18-25 year olds.

The only way to limit/fix this issue, IMO, is to put together a very solid foundation. At this stage, only Roughead (and probably Minson) are quality key pillars. CHB, CHF and FF are more or less 'vacant'. I think Hawthorn's rebuild of a few years ago is the way to do it (ie. they drafted an abundance of talls - not all were hits - Dowler/Thorp didn't work) but through this and smart trading (Hale, Gibson, Lake) they have been able to develop and maintain a very solid foundation/spine. Much easier to then fill a side out around them, rather than what we appear to do each rebuild, which is stockpiling the side with an abundance of versatile mids.

It's never as bad (or as good) as it seems, but we really need to develop a spine. The rest will work itself out (and I think we have a fairly good young list of mids/flankers) but we simply will not win anything with makeshift key posts.

Must use both free agency and drafting to do this.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

And if he made good decisions 5 years ago it wouldn't be such a mess. Clayton and Eade destroyed us.

Bollocks.....I am getting tired of the constant condemnation of Eade and Clayton. Eade was our BEST coach in the last 40 years. We played a wonderful brand of football, that played to our strengths. I would gladly take that style over the stop start rubbish being served up at the moment even if it never wins us a flag. The nucleus of the side was selected by Clayton and then shaped into a team that was competitive because of Eade's tactics.

Clayton - yes he made mistakes, especially in later years......Everitt was a shocker in hindsight and in fact that whole super draft was pure awful. The thing with drafting, highsight is pure 20-20 vision and evertone's an expert. Of the guys we drafted during his period, I reckon he got it right more often than not. Maybe some of his higher picks could have been better, but I think you rate a recruiter on a broader system than just first rounders. Also, until Macca our football department spending was woeful. We simply didn't have the budget to properly develop players properly. Its half the reason a lot of our guys have take much longer to become footballers.

Finally, Eade had the balls to tell the Board that a refresh wasn't what was required, but a complete rebuild. He advised that from 2011 onwards the club would be in decline because the cupboard was bare and our time spent chasing a flag meant that we topped up rather than cut into the list. He was sacked for telling the Board how it was. Now 4 years into a refresh not much has changed aside from our core of talent growing older without the younger guys stepping up to challenge for their spots. Blame Eade and Clayton if you want, but that's deluding yourself.

[G-Mo77]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

Never said Eade was a bad coach, got nothing but respect for him in that regard. Fact is we're still hurting from poor list management from many years ago. I'm not just talking draft days, blooding our younger players was severely lacking under Eade until it was all over. I watched Geelong Friday night and how many kids are out there playing seniors while there are plenty of others capable of doing the same in the VFL. They continously go to great lengths to play youth. They weren't short sited back when we ran I to them 5-6 years ago and they certainly aren't now.

You bring up some good points on spending and such. It's improved drastically now, maybe if we spent more back then we wouldn't care so much about a rebuild because we may have won a GF. Who knows.

The hole left behind Eade's reign is huge and is going to keep us down for a long time. Longer than I expected. He and the staff at the time shouldn't wear all the blame for our current woes but they should certainly wear some of it.

[Bornadog]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

The hole left behind Eade's reign is huge and is going to keep us down for a long time. Longer than I expected. He and the staff at the time shouldn't wear all the blame for our current woes but they should certainly wear some of it.

I know its a if and but --- what would you say if Harbrow, Ward and Lake were still playing for us? Would there be a hole left behind?

How about some criticism of the current personnel, they are hurting us at the moment as well.

[G-Mo77]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

I know its a if and but --- what would you say if Harbrow, Ward and Lake were still playing for us? Would there be a hole left behind?

How about some criticism of the current personnel, they are hurting us at the moment as well.

You know how I feel on Lake, never had a problem with it and our backline has help up pretty well all things considered. Harbrow and Ward fell through. We failed to comprehend that 2 expansion clubs with deep pockets were waiting in the wings. Harbrow I doubt we could have kept, Ward however was on us. Fantasia should be mentioned, he's a lot to answer for and the guy responsible for some questionable contracts and decisions. Would the hole be as big? Probably not. Harbrow and Ward running around would be great for us.

The current personnel in terms of drafting and list management is still to early to call. Right now it seems we're doing a decent job but as you've brought up many times there are also some questionable decisions with our current list that have been made. I can't fathom why we didn't take a pick or two in the rookie draft? We've got some tough decisions to make and should be judged on what they do post season. I really see this post season as a junction, they've got to do a decent cut of players and nail FA, Trade period and draft day if not we're in some pretty deep poo.

[Bornadog]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

You know how I feel on Lake, never had a problem with it and our backline has help up pretty well all things considered. Harbrow and Ward fell through. We failed to comprehend that 2 expansion clubs with deep pockets were waiting in the wings. Harbrow I doubt we could have kept, Ward however was on us. Fantasia should be mentioned, he's a lot to answer for and the guy responsible for some questionable contracts and decisions. Would the hole be as big? Probably not. Harbrow and Ward running around would be great for us.

The current personnel in terms of drafting and list management is still to early to call. Right now it seems we're doing a decent job but as you've brought up many times there are also some questionable decisions with our current list that have been made. I can't fathom why we didn't take a pick or two in the rookie draft? We've got some tough decisions to make and should be judged on what they do post season. I really see this post season as a junction, they've got to do a decent cut of players and nail FA, Trade period and draft day if not we're in some pretty deep poo.

Like

[Mofra]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

I know its a if and but --- what would you say if Harbrow, Ward and Lake were still playing for us? Would there be a hole left behind?

We would be positive in the ledger this year if they were playing - all are quality players.
We woudl still only be a mid-table side though, and we wouldn't have Macrae, Stringer, Hrovat or Bonti.

Ward is the one that relly hurts - he plays the exact style of football B-Mac preaches

[Greystache]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

Bollocks.....I am getting tired of the constant condemnation of Eade and Clayton. Eade was our BEST coach in the last 40 years. We played a wonderful brand of football, that played to our strengths. I would gladly take that style over the stop start rubbish being served up at the moment even if it never wins us a flag. The nucleus of the side was selected by Clayton and then shaped into a team that was competitive because of Eade's tactics.

Clayton - yes he made mistakes, especially in later years......Everitt was a shocker in hindsight and in fact that whole super draft was pure awful. The thing with drafting, highsight is pure 20-20 vision and evertone's an expert. Of the guys we drafted during his period, I reckon he got it right more often than not. Maybe some of his higher picks could have been better, but I think you rate a recruiter on a broader system than just first rounders. Also, until Macca our football department spending was woeful. We simply didn't have the budget to properly develop players properly. Its half the reason a lot of our guys have take much longer to become footballers.



Finally, Eade had the balls to tell the Board that a refresh wasn't what was required, but a complete rebuild. He advised that from 2011 onwards the club would be in decline because the cupboard was bare and our time spent chasing a flag meant that we topped up rather than cut into the list. He was sacked for telling the Board how it was. Now 4 years into a refresh not much has changed aside from our core of talent growing older without the younger guys stepping up to challenge for their spots. Blame Eade and Clayton if you want, but that's deluding yourself.

The reason I brought it up was throughout this thread, and other threads we keep reading about past drafting mistakes and list management that is now hurting us. How many years do we have to go back?

I am pointing out there are current drafting mistakes as well. I can also add a few more such as Pearce, and the jury still out on Jong. The only reason we have done well with the past couple of drafts is we had early draft picks, and the talent was there and even I could have picked a good one.

I hope for god sake these players improve or we are in for pain for a very long time.

From 2005 to 2007 we added 27 players to our list under Clayton and Eade (Eade was the football operations manager the entire period) those players on average would be 24-27 years old now, i.e. the nucleus of a premiership team, we have exactly 3 players still on our list- Higgins, Wood and Grant. That is 24 players that have since moved on. Of which only Harbow and Ward being players we saw value in, and Ward being the only one we should have managed to keep.


Our recruiting during that period has destroyed our list and is the reason we're where we are. Plenty of people are happy to deflect the blame for our failures off these two, but this 3 year period is the worst recruiting in history of our club. They were uncompromised drafts, all our first rounders were inside the top 11 picks, and we botched nearly all of our slections.

[chef]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

From 2005 to 2007 we added 27 players to our list under Clayton and Eade (Eade was the football operations manager the entire period) those players on average would be 24-27 years old now, i.e. the nucleus of a premiership team, we have exactly 3 players still on our list- Higgins, Wood and Grant. That is 24 for players that have since moved on. Of which only Harbow and Ward being players we saw value in, and Ward being the only one we should have managed to keep.


Our recruiting during that period has destroyed our list and is the reason we're where we are. Plenty of people are happy to deflect the blame for our failures off these two, but this 3 year period is the worst recruiting in history of our club. They were uncompromised drafts, all our first rounders were inside the top 11 picks, and we botched nearly all of them.

This. We simply have no core.

[Remi Moses]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

I don't get why people keep throwing up Harbrow.
He wanted out

[Sedat]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 10 - Gold Coast Suns V Western Bulldogs

From 2005 to 2007 we added 27 players to our list under Clayton and Eade (Eade was the football operations manager the entire period) those players on average would be 24-27 years old now, i.e. the nucleus of a premiership team, we have exactly 3 players still on our list- Higgins, Wood and Grant. That is 24 players that have since moved on. Of which only Harbow and Ward being players we saw value in, and Ward being the only one we should have managed to keep.


Our recruiting during that period has destroyed our list and is the reason we're where we are. Plenty of people are happy to deflect the blame for our failures off these two, but this 3 year period is the worst recruiting in history of our club. They were uncompromised drafts, all our first rounders were inside the top 11 picks, and we botched nearly all of our selections.

Some very good points there and obviously a key reason for our current malaise. For all his undeniable list management faults, Eade was an elite match-day coach and put together a game plan that was unique, successful, very attractive (secondary consideration but one important in luring lapsed members, better sponsors and better TV exposure) and ahead of its time - Geelong basically ripped off our game plan, perfected it and was able to overcome the reactionary game plans involving press/cluster/zones. If Eade/Clayton were able to develop both the quality and the depth of the list better, we would have had the perfect mix of innovation in game plan, attractive playing style and quality/depth of personnel - I would say the last point really prevented us from snagging a flag or two and not the game plan per se (it worked well enough for Geelong, who had the talent to execute it)

I would also argue that our current game plan is neither particularly unique nor is it particularly effective - it is certainly unattractive. Now is it because of personnel, or is it because other game plans have overtaken what we developed and implemented back in 2012? Hard to answer - probably a bit of both. What it does is place us in a very tricky position over the next 12-18 months - we really should be expecting continued linear improvement and finals action in 2015 followed by a sustained run of September action thereafter. The reality looks like we are light years away from this. I disagree with other people's assertion that our season is shot and we now have nothing to play for in 2014 - I think the next 3 months is a critically important phase in our development, and will answer many questions as to whether or not we are on the right path both with playing style and with personnel supported.