Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

I don't necessarily agree - a key question, of course, is the potential for developing tap-skills, but I would argue that a lumbering ruckman, with good skills can actually be very valuable. I saw a comparison with Dean Cox who lumbered exceptionally effectively, but was initially hated as a 'spud' of a ruckman by many Weagles supporters (I remember hearing them screaming abuse at him when we played them a couple of times early in his career).

Ben Hudson was another lumbering ruck who wasn't great at disposing of the ball, but was so good below his knees that he became elite at winning the contested ball.

English might not be as good as either, but good midfield skills in a ruck can be very valuable, even if you wouldn't select them as a pure mid. And his kicking skills could be extremely valuable in helping break down the zones that are likely to become even more predominate as we go forward.

There is absolutely a place for competitive, lumbering rucks who can either distribute the ball well or display clean hands below his knees. However, they do also need to be good at their rucking craft and be capable of taking a mark. Cox was a sensation who could do it all, but even Hudson was a very good ruckman who used his body really well. He also made himself a good target around the ground and although his marking was by no means elite, it wasn't bad.

For mine, I just don't see it with English. His strengths will be minimised as he puts much more weight on and currently he can't mark or ruck. Can he develop these two critical skill sets? Maybe, but I wouldn't be blowing a first round pick on that presumption. There's far too many question marks and "what ifs" for me to see him as a good selection.

[Greystache]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

What's the point of a 200cm+ ruckman scooping difficult ground balls and hitting great targets by foot IF he cannot do what a ruck is supposed to do; ruck and take marks?

I've read suggestions he could play as another midfielder etc. but it's rubbish. When the ball hits the ground, he isn't just competing against lumbering ruckman, he's competing against elite, quick and agile midfielders. The whole "unbelievable below his knees for his size" counts for little IMO, particularly when he isn't great at what he would need to be for his size.

Spot on. Being good below your knees should be an extra string to your bow, not you entire archery set. If you can't perform your primary role, then having some other useful qualities is useless.

It's like recruiting a full back who can't really defend because he's a nice set shot for goal. Or playing a bowler who can't take a wicket because he's a handy number 10 batsman.

[Raw Toast]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

There is absolutely a place for competitive, lumbering rucks who can either distribute the ball well or display clean hands below his knees. However, they do also need to be good at their rucking craft and be capable of taking a mark. Cox was a sensation who could do it all, but even Hudson was a very good ruckman who used his body really well. He also made himself a good target around the ground and although his marking was by no means elite, it wasn't bad.

For mine, I just don't see it with English. His strengths will be minimised as he puts much more weight on and currently he can't mark or ruck. Can he develop these two critical skill sets? Maybe, but I wouldn't be blowing a first round pick on that presumption. There's far too many question marks and "what ifs" for me to see him as a good selection.

I guess my point is that initially Cox could not do it all, and Hudson seemed to be very limited - it's not my area of expertise, but it is an interesting question as to which skill sets can be relatively reliably taught (and projected), and which one's can't. Ayce Cordy comes to mind as well as someone highly regarded who didn't develop as hoped.

That said, I like the skill-set that English has as a base-level, and with the changing of ruck rules, we may be trending again towards a need for tall rucks. Can he tackle, is a key question I have. I also wonder if it is becoming harder to recruit and nurture rookie rucks - as with other 'moneyball' projects, that route might now be a site of over-investment, rather than under-investment, and if English falls we might be taking advantage of that from the other side.

[Bornadog]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

Knightmare's final AFL phantom draft: Who goes where?

see here

[lemmon]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

Looks like everyone has firmed on Mcgrath at 1

[Throughandthrough]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

Glenelg is tipping between 3 to 5 players will get drafted, not aware of the Dogs being interested in any of them. GWS supposedly all over Willie Rioli. Jonty Scharenberg and Sam Walker almost certainties (I really rate Walker). There's a few Other young defenders in the mix including Mackie and Hinge.

[The Doctor]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

Could you explain why Doc?

I've only read reports of him, but the thing I liked the most out of those was that he seemed very good and clean once the ball hit the ground. Obviously his kicking sounds very good as well, but do you worry about his marking, agility and ruck-work?

He's considered by many to be the best tall in the draft so thats not a bad rap. I know there are a few who rate him a top 5 talent.

I don't understand this thing about clubs being reluctant to draft a ruckman in the early stages of the draft. I understand they take a while to develop etc etc but a good one is a good one. Natanui goes alright and he went no.2 and many queried his footy IQ. I remember our own Jordan Roughead owning him in ruck contests at u/18 level but now he is an elite tap.

I also don't quite get why people say English can't ruck or mark. Where has that come from? One internet poster copying another? He goes alright in these areas and I'm sure there is scope for improvement. I've read comments saying ruckmen need more strings to their bow than being good below the knees. Well may I add these strings;

* quick hands in a contest
* ability to run and carry
* excellent kicking skills
* ability to link up in play and not stuff it up

some of this stuff your standard ruckman can't do and I think Bevo wouldn't mind having a ruckman with these skill sets.

I can remember the days when Peter Moore and Don Scott used to get the ball and take off and have a couple of bounces. They took the game on I like players like that.

[Raw Toast]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

He's considered by many to be the best tall in the draft so thats not a bad rap. I know there are a few who rate him a top 5 talent.

I don't understand this thing about clubs being reluctant to draft a ruckman in the early stages of the draft. I understand they take a while to develop etc etc but a good one is a good one. Natanui goes alright and he went no.2 and many queried his footy IQ. I remember our own Jordan Roughead owning him in ruck contests at u/18 level but now he is an elite tap.

I also don't quite get why people say English can't ruck or mark. Where has that come from? One internet poster copying another? He goes alright in these areas and I'm sure there is scope for improvement. I've read comments saying ruckmen need more strings to their bow than being good below the knees. Well may I add these strings;

* quick hands in a contest
* ability to run and carry
* excellent kicking skills
* ability to link up in play and not stuff it up

some of this stuff your standard ruckman can't do and I think Bevo wouldn't mind having a ruckman with these skill sets.

I can remember the days when Peter Moore and Don Scott used to get the ball and take off and have a couple of bounces. They took the game on I like players like that.

Thanks very much Doc, greatly appreciate your feedback and know that you've seen a bit of him and chatted with others who have done the same.

Top 5 talent sounds great at our pick if he falls that far, and those additional strings sound very impressive.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

No extended phantoms had Young or Greene mentioned at all. Lipinski made it to 58 on Knightmare's.

In future years they just go with 'we have no *!*!*!*!ing idea what Dalrymple is going to do'.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

AFL draft 2016: Four more join the pack
November 25, 2016 10:24 PM

SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA - NOVEMBER 25: Pick for the Western Bulldogs Tim English poses during the 2016 NAB AFL Draft at the Hordern Pavilion on November 25, 2016 in Sydney, Australia.

The Western Bulldogs 2016 draft haul will be defined by versatility above all else, with the Club selecting four players who can play a range of positions at Friday night’s NAB AFL Draft in Sydney.

205cm ruckman Tim English was taken with the Bulldogs' first pick, 19th overall, the athletic 19-year-old impressing scouts with his ability to cover the ground and pick-up possessions.

An exceptional kick for his size with a clean pair of hands, the Western Australian boasts a genuine midfield presence.

Northern Knights product, Patrick Lipinski, taken at pick 28, made an impression early in the year as a forward before moving into the centre midway through the season and excelling.

A 30 disposal (15 contested), seven tackle and six-clearance performance in June showed what he could be capable as he matures as a player.

Both Lipinski and pick 49, Lewis Young are former basketballers with potential to burn.

The 197cm Young boasts exceptional speed and agility for his height and has a good, reliable pair of hands. Just 17-years-old, his performance at the South Australian draft combine put him on the radar of a number of clubs.

The ultra-competitive Fergus Greene was taken with the Dogs’ last selection of the evening at pick 70.

Greene projects as a medium forward who can run all day; his 15.6 beep at the RookieMe Combine was the best recorded across any Combine this year.

The NAB AFL Pre-Season and Rookie Drafts will be held on Monday, November 28.

Exclusive to westernbulldogs.com.au

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

The footage of the boys on the club website is tantalising. Hopefully, these boys come on over the years. With Crammers, Cloke, Redders hopefully and Campbell with Roughy & Boyd, the pressure is off on rushing them in. But here's hoping for good signs at Footscray.

[comrade]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

The footage of the boys on the club website is tantalising. Hopefully, these boys come on over the years. With Crammers, Cloke, Redders hopefully and Campbell with Roughy & Boyd, the pressure is off on rushing them in. But here's hoping for good signs at Footscray.

I'm not holding my breath as key forwards taken late rarely pan out, but the move Young put's on at the end of his video is pretty impressive for a kid his size.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Phantom Draft & Expert Predictions on Dogs Pick

I'm hoping Venables slides to 18. Powerful in the contest, handy around the goals.

Not sure at 26. If Hayward slides, he'd suits us. Might even be a shot at 18. Watch his footage from the SANFL U/18 prelim. Outrageous.

I'd love to take a flier at Ben Long if he lasts to pick 50.

Whatever happens, I'm stoked we got that extra pick in the 20s. Very confident Dalrymple can find some gems.

Comrade strikes again on Hayward. I can see why many woofers and media had us linked to him. He looks a player.