Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

[Topdog]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

I got my stat from Footywire which is probably from last year. The point is Jones is lighter than Cordy and he is playing with the big boys. Jones is only 20yrs old but in a few weeks time Cordy will be 21 and seems to be playing ok at Willi.

TBF to myself when Hall was out and Jones was getting the big key defender I did call for him to be rested for a few weeks.

Like I said I am unsure which way we go. Cordy's body is fragile, Jones didn't really have injury problems at Willi.

[Greystache]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

I got my stat from Footywire which is probably from last year. The point is Jones is lighter than Cordy and he is playing with the big boys. Jones is only 20yrs old but in a few weeks time Cordy will be 21 and seems to be playing ok at Willi.

Jones is also 2cm taller this year so it probably balances out anyway. The club's weights program is clearly poorer than most other clubs and has been for our entire history, every few years we hear a story that they're going to finally catch up but it never happens, I think the most recent one was 2009. The fact is our KP players are always going to be undersized, and therefore will be later developers at AFL level. That is unless we can finally hit the professional era as a club, we'd always blamed poor facilities, I'm not sure what the excuse is now.

[Mantis]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

I don't believe its silly, what is silly about it?

Is there a need to answer that? I thought you were more switched on than your proceeding comments make out.

We have wrapped these guys in cotton wool and all they are getting is bruised and battered by VFL players. Why is that all the tall players over the years that we recruit never seem to be ready for AFL, yet other clubs play them so young. Jones has played every game this year which will do him a world of good for next. Ropughead had a few games but was poor (no poorer than Jones), and has now hit some form. Yes Cordy has had the injuries, but by all reports the last three weeks he has been in the bests.

There are only 5 games to go, I still say both Cordy and Roughead should be played.

How are they getting battered? Minson is the one doing the donkey work in the ruck with Cordy & Roughy playing bit parts.

Which tall players from other clubs are AFL ready straight away?

Besides Roughead's first game this year he was a liability and his form at Williamstown hasn't been good enough to warrant re-selection.

Cordy has played the last 2 weeks and has been in the bests, but he has been playing primarily at CHB. I guess the question to be asked is can he be competitive against one of Kennedy, Lynch & Darling. If the answer is yes he is a chance to play, but he shouldn't be coming in to play in the ruck like you have suggested.

[Bornadog]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

Is there a need to answer that? I thought you were more switched on than your proceeding comments make out. .

Frustration

How are they getting battered? Minson is the one doing the donkey work in the ruck with Cordy & Roughy playing bit parts. .

Playing against guys like Hamish McIntosh just like they would in the AFL, so whats the difference? Your comment that we will stuff up their long term, I can''t agree to.

Which tall players from other clubs are AFL ready straight away?

Lets See - West Coast - Darling only 19 and 87kg, Natinui, started at 19.

Besides Roughead's first game this year he was a liability and his form at Williamstown hasn't been good enough to warrant re-selection.

Cordy has played the last 2 weeks and has been in the bests, but he has been playing primarily at CHB. I guess the question to be asked is can he be competitive against one of Kennedy, Lynch & Darling. If the answer is yes he is a chance to play, but he shouldn't be coming in to play in the ruck like you have suggested.

Not saying 100% of the time in the ruck for Cordy. Give him a taste of AFL.

As for Roughead, agree didn't play well early but now he is getting some form.

[Desipura]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

Is there a need to answer that? I thought you were more switched on than your proceeding comments make out.



How are they getting battered? Minson is the one doing the donkey work in the ruck with Cordy & Roughy playing bit parts.

Which tall players from other clubs are AFL ready straight away?

Besides Roughead's first game this year he was a liability and his form at Williamstown hasn't been good enough to warrant re-selection.
Cordy has played the last 2 weeks and has been in the bests, but he has been playing primarily at CHB. I guess the question to be asked is can he be competitive against one of Kennedy, Lynch & Darling. If the answer is yes he is a chance to play, but he shouldn't be coming in to play in the ruck like you have suggested.

Since when has this been the barometer? Gilbee & Lake came back in the firsts after playing at Williamstown and not even being in the bests. Skinner had done little to warrant a game & Howard by all reports was only showing moderate form and got a game.
I agree that Cordy cannot come in as a ruckman, a 3rd tall in the forward line is an option.
I think we need to start the contingency plan post Hall this week. Play Grant at full forward in bursts, lets see if he can do something.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

Jones is also 2cm taller this year so it probably balances out anyway. The club's weights program is clearly poorer than most other clubs and has been for our entire history, every few years we hear a story that they're going to finally catch up but it never happens, I think the most recent one was 2009. The fact is our KP players are always going to be undersized, and therefore will be later developers at AFL level. That is unless we can finally hit the professional era as a club, we'd always blamed poor facilities, I'm not sure what the excuse is now.

Not sure I agree with that.

Cordy has made significant weight gain and it actually created a problem from a report I have read. Needed to reduce some bulk because he was struggling to cope.

Roughead has been restricted by persistent shoulder problems that required post season surgery both years since he was drafted.

Cordy had his early last year and got a start on the weight program to put him ahead of Roughy in physical development.

They do need a chance for it to all come together, but the signs are promising from the most recent reports.

[Mofra]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

Jones is also 2cm taller this year so it probably balances out anyway. The club's weights program is clearly poorer than most other clubs and has been for our entire history, every few years we hear a story that they're going to finally catch up but it never happens, I think the most recent one was 2009. The fact is our KP players are always going to be undersized, and therefore will be later developers at AFL level. That is unless we can finally hit the professional era as a club, we'd always blamed poor facilities, I'm not sure what the excuse is now.

It's not all about bulk - Minson by his own admission was too heavy at one point last year (he hit 106kgs?) and Roughy slimmed down to play a more mobile role. Both are mesomorphs who can put weight on easily anyway.
Lake & Tommy are hardly small, good sized for their position.

[Greystache]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

Not sure I agree with that.

Cordy has made significant weight gain and it actually created a problem from a report I have read. Needed to reduce some bulk because he was struggling to cope.

Roughead has been restricted by persistent shoulder problems that required post season surgery both years since he was drafted.

Cordy had his early last year and got a start on the weight program to put him ahead of Roughy in physical development.

They do need a chance for it to all come together, but the signs are promising from the most recent reports.

Cordy is the only KP player to put on substantial bulk as a developing tall since Minson, probably because he knew it was sink or swim. The club uses the line about restricting their athleticism, but it seems like its far less of a concern for other clubs.

Our young talls are always behind their peers, look at guys like J Roughead, Franklin, J Riewoldt, Kreuzer, Frawley, Dawes, Hurley etc as 20 year olds, we never produce players that develop that quickly. As I said, every 3-4 years, usually when a new head of conditioning joins, they acknowledge the weights program has been poor and vow to improve it.

[Greystache]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

It's not all about bulk - Minson by his own admission was too heavy at one point last year (he hit 106kgs?) and Roughy slimmed down to play a more mobile role. Both are mesomorphs who can put weight on easily anyway.
Lake & Tommy are hardly small, good sized for their position.

It's not about being bulky, its about having enough weight and strenght to compete, something we're very slow at achieving. Roughead slimmed down over summer because it was acknowledged he was carrying puppy fat. Lake was a big 20 year old when drafted, and Williams sat on the sidelines for his first 4 years restricted to gym work, he hardly took the league by storm as a develooing young tall.

Ectomorph, endomorph, or mesomorph, its irrelevant to a degree, some players just have to do the extra work if their body type demands it. N Riewoltd and Franklin are hardly stereotypical mesomorphs, but the were still big enough to be KP players at 20.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

You think Cordy could be used as a sub?

[Mofra]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

It's not about being bulky, its about having enough weight and strenght to compete, something we're very slow at achieving. Roughead slimmed down over summer because it was acknowledged he was carrying puppy fat. Lake was a big 20 year old when drafted, and Williams sat on the sidelines for his first 4 years restricted to gym work, he hardly took the league by storm as a develooing young tall.

Ectomorph, endomorph, or mesomorph, its irrelevant to a degree, some players just have to do the extra work if their body type demands it. N Riewoltd and Franklin are hardly stereotypical mesomorphs, but the were still big enough to be KP players at 20.

Riewoldt & Franklin were freakish talents who were having an impact early in their career - much like the skinny Chris Grant did. Size isn't the reason they are gun forwards.

We have had a period of time where Clayton favoured naturally skinny types who take longer, but on a like for like basis we fare no differently to other clubs in terms of adding size, especially when you consider highly rated types like Luenburger, Watts, the Reid brothers, Tippett, Walker etc

[chef]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

I don't believe its silly, what is silly about it?

We have wrapped these guys in cotton wool and all they are getting is bruised and battered by VFL players. Why is that all the tall players over the years that we recruit never seem to be ready for AFL, yet other clubs play them so young. Jones has played every game this year which will do him a world of good for next. Ropughead had a few games but was poor (no poorer than Jones), and has now hit some form. Yes Cordy has had the injuries, but by all reports the last three weeks he has been in the bests.

There are only 5 games to go, I still say both Cordy and Roughead should be played.

I agree, didn't they just ruck against McIntosh and Daw in there game against Werribee.

[Cyberdoggie]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

Not sure I agree with that.

Cordy has made significant weight gain and it actually created a problem from a report I have read. Needed to reduce some bulk because he was struggling to cope.

Roughead has been restricted by persistent shoulder problems that required post season surgery both years since he was drafted.

Cordy had his early last year and got a start on the weight program to put him ahead of Roughy in physical development.

They do need a chance for it to all come together, but the signs are promising from the most recent reports.

I disagree, I think we have focussed on fitness and running ability more than size and strength at times.

I don't think we develop our young talls at all well. How many years have Jones, Roughead, Panos, Cordy, Grant all been in the system?
It's definately long enough for them to have some decent size about them that is for sure, and this isn't happening.

In regards to injuries being a setback? this is just an excuse. If you injure your shoulder you can still work out your legs. Cordy has put on size from what we have heard and he eats more than Minson but he's not putting on hardly any muscle. I haven't seen him play for a month or so now and i know he's playing much better football but earlier in the year he simply didn't have the body strength to match it with his opponent. He would get easily knocked out of position.
With Roughead and his shoulders, i believe he has also injured his shoulder again earlier this year, which was a major factor in his poor form. It wouldn't surprise me to see them wait until the end of the year, put him in for an operation again and then he'll once again miss the pre-season and will come back looking the same with no strenght in his arms.
Next year he will be expected to play Full forward in place of Barry Hall but we are only setting him up for a fall if he comes out built like he is now.

Grant obviously has a bizarre build type of his body and putting size on him would be one hell of an achievement but he has lost all confidence this year because everyone knows how to play him. This happened to Josh Hill as well and he has never recovered. The kid was one of the best contested marking players in his breakout year but now he's mentally shot. Do we want to do the same with our other promising players?

I know it's quite possible that you can send a player off for early operations in order to give them a good pre-season only to find they injure themselves off-season, but in my opinion you don't over race your young racehorses too early, give them every chance to develop physically so they can compete an the highest level. Finding the correct balance of football and physical development is the key.

[stefoid]

Re: Williamstown vs Werribee Round 17

Rough, Jones and Cordy are all in their 3rd year. They were drafted at the end of 08.

They will all be playing in the side for the first time probably in 2 weeks time!