2018 Tour of South Africa

[bulldogtragic]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

I think that's going a bit far, but would definitely keep them all away from leadership positions beyond 2020.

Totally agree. They deserve a chance to redeem themselves if their form warrants selection. Young sportsmen in all sports make bad 'non-hanging offence' mistakes, these men are no different and deserve a chance after serving their punishment. They got a 9-12 month ban and not a life ban for a reason. To me, we will see what sort of men they are now and how they deal with having to work up from the bottom again.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

I think that's going a bit far, but would definitely keep them all away from leadership positions beyond 2020.

I was of that impression before the interviews but I'm not sure Bancroft and Smith have taken ownership of their roles in the tampering. To me that is a most critical step. Throwing Warner under the bus just gives me the impression that they aren't owning their errors.
If Bancroft followed the leader as he seems to be saying then how confident can we be that he wouldn't do it again?
Smith was advised that that at least two players were planning to tamper with the ball and he basically empowered them by saying I don't want to hear this.

Agree that leadership roles can't be part of their return

[Greystache]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

https://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/44539299

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-27/du-plessis-fine-for-ball-tampering/5048138

I repeat, we have been played for mugs. EVERY test playing nation has been caught interfering with the ball and to call Australia out for it is the height of hypocrisy.

The difference is their players denied their guilt (despite clear evidence), their cricket management denied the charge and supported the players, their media leapt to their defence, and their country's population supported them and all was forgotten.

Contrast that with Australia where the players admitted guilt, the media were falling over themselves to condemn the players and carry on as if it were the only instance of ball tampering in sports history, a vast group of the population who think it's intellectual to hate themselves, and a cricket management group that hung the players out to dry in the hope of winning favour with a group of miserable people who hate the sport and everything it represents. The cluster*!*!*!*! we saw play out was inevitable.

It was the most ridiculous response in sports history and time has only made it look more absurd.

[jeemak]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

The difference is their players denied their guilt (despite clear evidence), their cricket management denied the charge and supported the players, their media leapt to their defence, and their country's population supported them and all was forgotten.

Contrast that with Australia where the players admitted guilt, the media were falling over themselves to condemn the players and carry on as if it were the only instance of ball tampering in sports history, a vast group of the population who think it's intellectual to hate themselves, and a cricket management group that hung the players out to dry in the hope of winning favour with a group of miserable people who hate the sport and everything it represents. The cluster*!*!*!*! we saw play out was inevitable.

It was the most ridiculous response in sports history and time has only made it look more absurd.

God almighty!

[hujsh]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

The difference is their players denied their guilt (despite clear evidence), their cricket management denied the charge and supported the players, their media leapt to their defence, and their country's population supported them and all was forgotten.

Contrast that with Australia where the players admitted guilt, the media were falling over themselves to condemn the players and carry on as if it were the only instance of ball tampering in sports history, a vast group of the population who think it's intellectual to hate themselves, and a cricket management group that hung the players out to dry in the hope of winning favour with a group of miserable people who hate the sport and everything it represents. The cluster*!*!*!*! we saw play out was inevitable.

It was the most ridiculous response in sports history and time has only look more absurd.

So you think we should have just done what the other countries did?

[Greystache]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

So you think we should have just done what the other countries did?

Are we not playing the same sport in the same competition under the same rules?

The players received a 1 match suspension from the governing body which is inline with every other country who's players have been caught ball tampering... and there's been shitloads of them.

Do you think we should show our moral superiority to the rest of the world and ban 3 players for 10 times longer than any other country?

[hujsh]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

Are we not playing the same sport in the same competition under the same rules?

The players received a 1 match suspension which is inline with every other country who's players have been caught ball tampering... and there's been shitloads of them.

The punishment is one thing. It's not too hard to get behind since it's unlikely we've set a standard for the future which is the practical reason to act more harshly (love to be proven wrong but can't see India handling the same thing in the same way). I'm more curious about the rest of your statement. Should CA and the players have denied the charges? Should the media have supported them when they were caught cheating? Should the public have supported them?

[jeemak]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

The punishment is one thing. It's not too hard to get behind since it's unlikely we've set a standard for the future which is the practical reason to act more harshly (love to be proven wrong but can't see India handling the same thing in the same way). I'm more curious about the rest of your statement. Should CA and the players have denied the charges? Should the media have supported them when they were caught cheating? Should the public have supported them?

Exactly. Any response other than a full admission would have been more ridiculous than the apparent most ridiculous response to a sports crisis in sporting history!

I love the Australian cricket team, and its players and I expect a lot from them. It shames me when I see them blatantly cheating, and I'm sad to say I haven't liked the attitudes of a lot of the players representing my country over a period of time.

And I can have those feelings whilst not giving a flying *!*!*!*! about how the rest of the cricket world behaves. That's the thing that I think you're not giving a lot of us cricket loving proles credit for 'stache. We don't give a shit how the rest of the world behaves, we just don't like seeing our team members being dickheads and cheating.

[Greystache]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

The punishment is one thing. It's not too hard to get behind since it's unlikely we've set a standard for the future which is the practical reason to act more harshly (love to be proven wrong but can't see India handling the same thing in the same way). I'm more curious about the rest of your statement. Should CA and the players have denied the charges? Should the media have supported them when they were caught cheating? Should the public have supported them?

It's the passion and vigour with which they attack Australia that I take issue with. It's as if all their dreams have come true at once for many, they finally have something material to direct their self-loathing at and even approaching a year later their thirst can't be quenched. Take a stereotypical example of the type of self-loathing piece of shit I'm referring to, Robert "Crash" Craddock, your modern Australian journalist, a man who've never encountered something about Australia he doesn't hate- Faf Du Plesis gets caught ball tampering on camera, gets charged and found guilty by the ICC, while playing against Australia in Australia, Craddock dismisses the incident on national TV as "a bad look but if we're being honest every team in modern cricket tampers with the ball, it's not a big deal, I take issue with the Australian players trying to make a big deal out of it and it's typical of the bully boy way they conduct themselves". He's since written 10,000 articles about the disgrace of ball tampering and has even suggested a life ban for the Australian players would have been an appropriate response.

[Greystache]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

Exactly. Any response other than a full admission would have been more ridiculous than the apparent most ridiculous response to a sports crisis in sporting history!

I love the Australian cricket team, and its players and I expect a lot from them. It shames me when I see them blatantly cheating, and I'm sad to say I haven't liked the attitudes of a lot of the players representing my country over a period of time.

And I can have those feelings whilst not giving a flying *!*!*!*! about how the rest of the cricket world behaves. That's the thing that I think you're not giving a lot of us cricket loving proles credit for 'stache. We don't give a shit how the rest of the world behaves, we just don't like seeing our team members being dickheads and cheating.

Surely with our virtuous ways then we shouldn't, and in fact can't, continue to play in the same competition as countries that don't have our moral integrity? How could we take the field against a South African team for example that's had 4 players convicted of ball tampering and never been held to account in the fashion we consider the basic standards of behaviour? Surely that just makes us sanctimonious hypocrites?

Given the higher standards we possess than the rank and file of the rest of the world we shouldn't lower ourselves to be associated with them. Perhaps we can form a new competition and we only extend an invitation to countries we believe up to our standards? We could call it the Virtue League, or perhaps the Elite Honesty League?

[hujsh]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

It's the passion and vigour with which they attack Australia that I take issue with. It's as if all their dreams have come true at once for many, they finally have something material to direct their self-loathing at and even approaching a year later their thirst can't be quenched. Take a stereotypical example of the type of self-loathing piece of shit I'm referring to, Robert "Crash" Craddock, your modern Australian journalist, a man who've never encountered something about Australia he doesn't hate- Faf Du Plesis gets caught ball tampering on camera, gets charged and found guilty by the ICC, while playing against Australia in Australia, Craddock dismisses the incident on national TV as "a bad look but if we're being honest every team in modern cricket tampers with the ball, it's not a big deal, I take issue with the Australian players trying to make a big deal out of it and it's typical of the bully boy way they conduct themselves". He's since written 10,000 articles about the disgrace of ball tampering and has even suggested a life ban for the Australian players would have been an appropriate response.

I can understand the frustration with the hypocrisy. I think they are/were right to condemn the team in this case though even if some of the journalists motives weren't 100% pure and consistent with past positions (which should be called out for sure). I do think that calling it self loathing and proof that they hate the sport is perhaps reading too much into it. Odds are that some of the people in the Aus team have been unlikable for a while now and some journos just found a way to tap into that to get people to read their articles.

I remember there being support for Symonds when he alleged that Singh called him a monkey and the papers I read at the time did provide context of India's relationship with Steve Bucknor (Indian papers drawing him as an ape for example)

[jeemak]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

Surely with our virtuous ways then we shouldn't, and in fact can't, continue to play in the same competition as countries that don't have our moral integrity? How could we take the field against a South African team for example that's had 4 players convicted of ball tampering and never been held to account in the fashion we consider the basic standards of behaviour? Surely that just makes us sanctimonious hypocrites?

Given the higher standards we possess than the rank and file of the rest of the world we shouldn't lower ourselves to be associated with them. Perhaps we can form a new competition and we only extend an invitation to countries we believe up to our standards? We could call it the Virtue League, or perhaps the Elite Honesty League?

That's a petulant response that completely misses the point. Sure, you could make an argument that 9-12 month bans were too much. But, why would you accept something below what you set as your own standards because everyone else, or some, were doing the same things that you're not happy with?

What's actually wrong with setting an example and allowing the rest to catch up?

The economics of cricket suggest Australia is in a position where it needs to mollycoddle to an extent the likes of India, South Africa and Pakistan (all for different reasons), and that going hard at these countries on different issues isn't within its own long term interests. That doesn't mean it can't set an example to its own players and people surrounding the conduct that it expects.

If you weren't completely mortified by what you saw in South Africa earlier this year then I'd be shocked.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

I'm currently struggling with commentary currently around whether the players should be allowed back at all. As a society we give people charged with crimes a chance to redeem themselves after they serve their punishment. As a sporting world, we give second chances to doping/drug cheats, acts of severe violence and/or book making entanglements and other cheating etc.

These guys get to make mistakes, be penalised, but they should have the chance to redeem themselves from those mistakes. I struggled and struggle with a front paper advocating that young male offenders get a second chance, and a back page that says the exact opposite. I understand the difference and grey here, but the concept of redemption should be universal. And more important given how much Smith & Warner have paid for stupidity. I was in and out of consciousness after a big surgery when this was originally playing out and it took me two days to work it all out with the PM weighing in on it. It seemed overkill then, and overkill now. I don't condone the horribly amatuer attempt at cheating and considering how obvious it was, it was going to be a lot worse than other suspensions. But 12 months and losing their CA & IPL contracts is beyond severe. Essendon footballers lied about off site injections of Mexican TB4 and god knows what from China and they got 12 months too.

We are not able to change the past, but I'd like to think we could maybe do things a little differently if we had our time again. The point above is well made, there's now a precedent for cheating from CA. Excessive and dispropionate. If anyone makes a mistake or is perceived to make a mistake, then watch out and jump on seek.com.au for jobs at Coles or Woolies.

The best healing that I think can be is to play any of the three if form warrants it. If Dusty Martin is a come back hero story (threats with chop sticks on all), I wonder if the cricket media will focus on a positive too? I can only hope and we can move on.

[jeemak]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

Trag the commentary about players not coming back is ridiculous.

There's something about cricket lore that can be either really beautiful, or really ugly. I put it down to people having too much time to sit around and mull over things throughout a game. In this instance, it has been ugly and calling for life bans post the event and initial sanctions is just plain weird to me.

[Greystache]

Re: 2018 Tour of South Africa

That's a petulant response that completely misses the point. Sure, you could make an argument that 9-12 month bans were too much. But, why would you accept something below what you set as your own standards because everyone else, or some, were doing the same things that you're not happy with?

What's actually wrong with setting an example and allowing the rest to catch up?

The economics of cricket suggest Australia is in a position where it needs to mollycoddle to an extent the likes of India, South Africa and Pakistan (all for different reasons), and that going hard at these countries on different issues isn't within its own long term interests. That doesn't mean it can't set an example to its own players and people surrounding the conduct that it expects.

If you weren't completely mortified by what you saw in South Africa earlier this year then I'd be shocked.

You can call it petulant if it makes you feel better, I call it extending the absurdity across the entire spectrum.

I was mortified. Not quite as mortified as I might have been had I not seen it a dozen times from teams we play against, but my outrage has waned somewhat given I apply it equally to all teams in the competition rather than a laser focus on my own team. Hence my outrage has been spread extremely thin over the years.

Do you honestly think we're setting the standard and other teams will catch up? Honestly? No seriously honestly?

We suspended the best player in the world for a year for not wanting to get involved in ball tampering while playing against a team that had 4 players on the field who've been convicted for that very crime, including the captain who's been convicted twice and missed a total of 1 Test match. If you can't or don't want acknowledge the absurdity of the situation I can't help you.