The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

[Ghost Dog]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

I don't think Collingwood were characterised by a great deal of mongrel, yet they won the premiership. I would have thought an overall committment to the gameplan and role within that was more instrumental.

Totally disagree

Case in point: Harry O'brian stepped it up in 2010. More wrestle, more niggle and that thing that SHITS me, taking the player on the mark out of the play- player coming from behind to block . Were they doing that in 2009?
thought Collingwood looked far more agressive than us in 2010.

There is a time and a place for mongrel. But tackling is a huge issue at the pound. Rather that than biffo

[anfo27]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

Can't be injuries, every team has injuries come finals. I just don't think we are mentally tough enough to match the best teams. We have shown time and time that we are unable to block out outside pressures whatever they might be and come out and play our best.

[Dazza]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

Collingwood ran every team off it's feet from it's defensive half. The new interchange rule might slow them down slightly.

[soupman]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

Can't be injuries, every team has injuries come finals. I just don't think we are mentally tough enough to match the best teams. We have shown time and time that we are unable to block out outside pressures whatever they might be and come out and play our best.

I disagree.

Whilst I believe injuries shouldn't be used as an excuse, it would be ignorant to suggest they don't have an impact on finals performances. You can't say Adfam Cooney's injury didn't affect our performances.

[BulldogBelle]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

We had a very bad run with injuries at the pointy end of the season

Cooney, Morris, Lake, Higgins....some of our best either not playing or underdone...

I'm not going nto point the finger at our medical staff as the majority of our injuries werent soft tissue...with Morris' and Lakes it would have been tough to prevent them

[stefoid]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

one ounce of "ability to perform under pressure" would be worth a tonne of "mongrel".

[anfo27]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

I disagree.

Whilst I believe injuries shouldn't be used as an excuse, it would be ignorant to suggest they don't have an impact on finals performances. You can't say Adfam Cooney's injury didn't affect our performances.

The way we performed all year would suggest to me that even with Cooney we would not have won through to a grand final. Cooney doesn't exactly have a good record in finals.
It just annoys me to read people use injuries as to why we haven't done well in finals, thats a cop out. Every team plays players that probably shouldn't be playing come finals and we had all those players last year and it was the same result.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

Agreed
We may have gone alright with Adam in, and was a huge out, but you need enough depth to be able to cover injuries.
It was too big an out to suggest our list was too thin on performers.

[boydogs]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

one ounce of "ability to perform under pressure" would be worth a tonne of "mongrel".

Those two things are far from being mutually exclusive.

The nice guy, skillful players get shut down under finals pressure and easily lose confidence.
The hard nuts relish the contest and believe they deserve to win.

[LostDoggy]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

Those two things are far from being mutually exclusive.

The nice guy, skillful players get shut down under finals pressure and easily lose confidence.
The hard nuts relish the contest and believe they deserve to win.

I think this is overly simplistic -- some players play aggressively to compensate for low confidence, which is exposed in finals. See half of St.Kilda's list for examples.

Meanwhile, plenty of professional, nice-guy players have thrived in finals over the history of our game, as of course, 'niceness' is not mutually exclusive (to use your term) from 'hardness'.

I agree that hardness at the contest is important, but that and 'mongrel' are two different things -- you can be a fair player and still hit a contest hard, and you can be an eye-gouger and scratcher and general dickhead and still duck your head at a contest or be a non-factor in finals.

Ryan Griffen has been our best performer in finals, and Callan Ward wasn't far behind him this year, and neither of them are dickheads. And how is Stephen Milne's record in finals?

[LostDoggy]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

I'm interested in the concept that there was only one thing holding us back from winning the flag.
I would have thought in 2010 that at least all of
1. Injuries to top 22 players
2. Poor performance/injury/dickheadedness by our Johnson/Eagleton/Hahn/Akermanis
3. Some players not playing up to the level of previous years / playing selfish football
4. Lack of depth on the list

would top it in importance.

I understand that the OP is about a long term issue within the club but I think it's down the list every year if it's indeed important at all.

You might be right but people are always looking for new excuses/someone to blame.
This weeks word is Mongrel.
Shame A.Mongrel didn't nominate himself on the draft. Anyway he would have been taken prior our first pick.

[boydogs]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

I think this is overly simplistic -- some players play aggressively to compensate for low confidence, which is exposed in finals. See half of St.Kilda's list for examples.

Meanwhile, plenty of professional, nice-guy players have thrived in finals over the history of our game, as of course, 'niceness' is not mutually exclusive (to use your term) from 'hardness'.

I agree that hardness at the contest is important, but that and 'mongrel' are two different things -- you can be a fair player and still hit a contest hard, and you can be an eye-gouger and scratcher and general dickhead and still duck your head at a contest or be a non-factor in finals.

Ryan Griffen has been our best performer in finals, and Callan Ward wasn't far behind him this year, and neither of them are dickheads. And how is Stephen Milne's record in finals?

We're waxing lyrical a bit here. I'm just saying there is a certain commonailty between players who are outwardly confident enough to have a physical prescence, and players with the confidence not to fall to water under pressure.

You shouldn't need Brian Lake to run from FB to escort the FF off the field. Cooney & Stack's efforts could best be described as 'token'. The 2010 PF was lost because no-one stood up to stem the tide against us, as we gave up our half time lead during the 3rd quarter. I think there is validity in the thinking that we need more players prepared to make their mark in that situation.

[LostDoggy]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

The 2010 PF was lost because no-one stood up to stem the tide against us, as we gave up our half time lead during the 3rd quarter. I think there is validity in the thinking that we need more players prepared to make their mark in that situation.

Totally agree with this -- but the best way to stem the tide is to go up to their end and score a couple of goals, not engage in argy-bargy, which these days, is more likely to end up in a free-kick and goal to the opposition anyway, which is the most certain way to NOT stem the tide ie. 2009 PF when Riewoldt went down as if shot from Lake's elbow to the ribs and got a free goal from it.

[boydogs]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

Totally agree with this -- but the best way to stem the tide is to go up to their end and score a couple of goals, not engage in argy-bargy, which these days, is more likely to end up in a free-kick and goal to the opposition anyway, which is the most certain way to NOT stem the tide ie. 2009 PF when Riewoldt went down as if shot from Lake's elbow to the ribs and got a free goal from it.

The Riewoldt dive is a poor example for a few reasons. It was never intended to be a serious hit, it was not done whilst the Saints were on top and it should never have been given a free as it was just a dive.

Look at what happened with Hawthorn v Essendon in round 22, 2009, and then tell me that physicality can't turn a match on its head.

[The Underdog]

Re: The one thing stopping us winning the flag?

The Riewoldt dive is a poor example for a few reasons. It was never intended to be a serious hit, it was not done whilst the Saints were on top and it should never have been given a free as it was just a dive.

Look at what happened with Hawthorn v Essendon in round 22, 2009, and then tell me that physicality can't turn a match on its head.

What role did Matthew Lloyd play in the first week of the finals?