Forward line 2012

[Sedat]

Re: Forward line 2012

He has more upsides than Spider Jnr did. Pace, marking ability, youth for starters.

He's only 4 months younger than Dre, who was a bottom ager when we drafted him - they were best mates at high school from memory.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Forward line 2012

How does cool and laconic = not caring?

You're right -- I'm probably going too early for this year, but the guy has form in the 'don't care' stakes. The way he chases sometimes, either he's carrying secret injuries or he just doesn't have his head in the right place defensively, especially for someone of his pace.

Look, nothing would make me happier than if Grant takes these words and stuffs them straight back down my throat, but I'm not hopeful (for now). Of course, I reserve the right as an armchair critic to totally change my tune in 6 months when he's kicked 80 goals and made 160 tackles for the season!

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Forward line 2012

He's only 4 months younger than Dre, who was a bottom ager when we drafted him - they were best mates at high school from memory.

That aside, he has more uspides than Everitt in truth. Otherwise he wouldn't still be in our list.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Forward line 2012

That aside, he has more uspides than Everitt in truth. Otherwise he wouldn't still be in our list.

That was my point a couple of posts back, actually -- I think if Grant wasn't a top 5 pick we would definitely have looked at trading him by now, but screwing up yet another top 5 pick is too much for the club to consider. Let's just hypothetically say that Jarrad was picked at 20 or 25. You don't think we would have floated him to a few clubs over the past couple of trade weeks?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Forward line 2012

The frustrating thing with Grant, is that he has all the tools -- and all the talent -- to be an extremely good footballer. You can easily see why he was drafted at #5.

The disappointing thing is, from the outside looking in, the mental side of his game is incredibly poor. He just doesn't work hard enough.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Forward line 2012

That was my point a couple of posts back, actually -- I think if Grant wasn't a top 5 pick we would definitely have looked at trading him by now, but screwing up yet another top 5 pick is too much for the club to consider. Let's just hypothetically say that Jarrad was picked at 20 or 25. You don't think we would have floated him to a few clubs over the past couple of trade weeks?

Really? you think we would have traded him?

Let's look at the stats ( source AFL TABLES )




16 games - goal per game last year. Not so bad considering Barry demands the ball a lot and we had a rough season on the whole.
Average of 12.1 disposals per game is not bad for for a young-ish player. Disagree? Most CHF get about that many disposals.

I guess it also depends which games you have seen or not, as a fan.
I can't see why the club / fans would want to trade him, on paper at least. His first season, he got just a game. had a good 2010 but a poor 2011 which was reflective of the team as a whole.

I feel some are taking out their frustrations of a season gone wrong in 2011 on certain players that might be doing better. But they might also be doing much worse, as you can see above. Personally, if he kicks goals I don't care if he shows as much mongrel as others or not.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Forward line 2012

Really? you think we would have traded him?

I feel some are taking out their frustrations of a season gone wrong in 2011 on certain players that might be doing better. But they might also be doing much worse, as you can see above. Personally, if he kicks goals I don't care if he shows as much mongrel as others or not.

I don't think we would have traded him, but as we floated the likes of Andrejs and Minnow for a couple of years, I do think that if he was a lower pick he may have been raised as it looked/looks unlikely that he'll achieve his potential with us, although I may be going early. I remember having the same discussion about Andrejs two years ago, where lots of people were loathe to consider trading him (especially after getting the no.3 shirt), defending him and arguing that he'll 'pick up his intensity', but we know that this rarely happens. What we see is what we'll tend to get with Jarrad (and most players), if we're happy with him now and think he'll contribute, fair enough, but hoping he'll magically change, find some more intensity etc. isn't very realistic.

Can't argue with the fact that if he kicks goals (although I would say "as long as he kicks goals AND makes tackles") no one would give a rats about how laconic he looks!

ps. If he has a middling year where he gets dropped to the twos, he'll be very likely to be trade bait at the end of the year.

[Bornadog]

Re: Forward line 2012

Really? you think we would have traded him?

Let's look at the stats ( source AFL TABLES )




16 games - goal per game last year. Not so bad considering Barry demands the ball a lot and we had a rough season on the whole.
Average of 12.1 disposals per game is not bad for for a young-ish player. Disagree? Most CHF get about that many disposals.

I guess it also depends which games you have seen or not, as a fan.
I can't see why the club / fans would want to trade him, on paper at least. His first season, he got just a game. had a good 2010 but a poor 2011 which was reflective of the team as a whole.

I feel some are taking out their frustrations of a season gone wrong in 2011 on certain players that might be doing better. But they might also be doing much worse, as you can see above. Personally, if he kicks goals I don't care if he shows as much mongrel as others or not.

One thing the stats never show and that is intensity and want and demand for the ball. Grant needs to lift his game or he will be playing at Willi a lot in 2012.

[Before I Die]

Re: Forward line 2012

Agree with all of the above (especially your last point), but I think the draft number definitely matters to fans (and to recruiters who have a lot riding on their early picks). There is no doubt Wallis and, say, Howard, get picked on more than, say, Schofield, Tutt or Skinner ever does, despite their relative development all being there or thereabouts (minus Schofield for obvious reasons). If Grant was a rookie pick, we'd be all commenting on his potential and drooling over his speed and one 6 goal game, but as a no.5 pick, that's simply not good enough.

Same goes with someone like Williams: Markovic gets a pass because he's a low draft pick, Tom gets crucified because he's not what we'd expect from a no.6 pick, despite both of them being pretty much limited, middling defenders who do good things from time to time. Farran Ray suffered from that curse also. I also read somewhere a comment about Will being a first round pick and not quite up to standard for one. Also, Andrejs got cut despite playing a hell of a lot more games than Mulligan, partly because he was so disappointing for a no.11 pick, and nothing is expected from Mulligan. Ditto Higgins (disappointing for a no.11 pick) compared to, say, Hooper (nothing expected from a rookie, so anything he does tends to be 'good'), although Higgins has definitely had a higher output over his career.

This is less true for older players, but it still applies sometimes: Griff performs as well as Boydy over a season but gets bagged because he doesn't win enough games off his own boot or is a 'superstar' (as expected of a no.3 pick) but Boydy gets a pass on his disposal because he's come from nowhere (his former 'rookie' status is always mentioned when he is profiled), works his arse off and been a bonus.

Mind you, I agree with all that reasoning -- higher draft picks (and therefore the right of first refusal on a far bigger pool of players) are much, much more valuable commodities than lower draft picks, so more SHOULD be expected from players picked with them.

Aren't you just agreeing with yourself in this post? You say that "I think the draft number definitely matters to fans". You then support this claim with statements that in some cases are just your opinion, then conclude with the line that "I agree with all this reasoning'. You also refer to Everitt being 'cut', which is just not true.

I am not trying to pick an argument and I think this is the first post of yours that I have ever disagreed with. But I do think you may have let your disappointment in Grant cloud your judgement a little with regard to his overall performance so far. He is guilty of fading out of the game too much and has a laconic style, but his defensive efforts are generally quite good, he makes good decisions when he has the ball and his hands are elite. Unless all of Jones, Panos, Skinner, Fletcher and Hill make exceptional leaps forward, Grant will be given time to blossom. Which I believe he will.

High draft picks who are not getting a game will often look to change clubs while they still have currency. This was the case with both Everitt and Ray, neither were cut by the club. Low draft picks don't have this currency so stay until they are cut by the club. With Mulligan the club has clearly decided that 200cm athletes on low salaries are worth persevering with for a few extra years.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Forward line 2012

One thing the stats never show and that is intensity and want and demand for the ball. Grant needs to lift his game or he will be playing at Willi a lot in 2012.

Based on 2011 pretty much the whole team needs to lift its game besides Boyd, Murph, Picken and the usual coterie of guys who bust a nutsack every time. Wasn't Kelvin Templeton a pretty easy going dude?

[soupman]

Re: Forward line 2012

Panos is an interesting one.

What do the Willy watchers think of his ability to impose himself on a match? What I mean is that in the last 2 weeks (the intraclub and NAB cup (admittedly mickey mouse stuff but still...)) he has played in sides that have struggled to deliver the ball to their forwards and he more than any of the other forwards has suffered. There doesn't seem to be a plan b with him. In his favour we know that if he gets just 2 tocues that's likely 2 goals but I'm hoping that he has shown something to indicate that on a quiet day he can still force himself to get involved.

Grant has been dissapointing in both games and just doesn't look hungry or like he cares. Skinner has been the complete opposite and if he is fit enough then he is leading the race to take Grant's spot I think. He has enough attributes to really give our forwardline a spark and his disposal looked alright on the weekend.

[GVGjr]

Re: Forward line 2012

Panos is an interesting one.

What do the Willy watchers think of his ability to impose himself on a match? What I mean is that in the last 2 weeks (the intraclub and NAB cup (admittedly mickey mouse stuff but still...)) he has played in sides that have struggled to deliver the ball to their forwards and he more than any of the other forwards has suffered. There doesn't seem to be a plan b with him. In his favour we know that if he gets just 2 tocues that's likely 2 goals but I'm hoping that he has shown something to indicate that on a quiet day he can still force himself to get involved.

My concern about Panos making it to the next level has always been more around his mobility than ability. He's improved his body shape and fitness but he still has a lot of work to do if he is to become an AFL foward.

At the VFL I'm not sure he does impose himself on games but he has been good at making the most of the opportunities that present during a game.

He still has a bit of work to do on his football but his attitude seems great and I'm confident he will give it his all.

[GVGjr]

Re: Forward line 2012

How does cool and laconic = not caring?
I reckon you are being a bit hard on the lad over one incident. Comparing him to Everitt might...be... a little overly negative? He has more upsides than Spider Jnr did. Pace, marking ability, youth for starters.

First game of the preseason, let alone regular season. See how he goes over the journey of 2012 eh?

In terms of our forward line I think we are in a transition phase and it's always a rough time. expect a good 6 months to a year before things start to settle.

I be surprised if the comment is just isolated to one incident. I've posted a number of times about Grants focus and ethic and I think labeling him laconic at times probably does him a favor and glosses over some other traits.
Everitt was laconic and over the journey Murphy has displayed that tendency as well but Grant can shut right down with his attitude. I can remember seeing him coming to the interchange bench at Williamstown a few times looking like he was running up and down on the spot and as a comparison I can recall making mention of how hard Dahlhaus ran when it was his time to come off the ground.
Grant's concentration is the issue and at times I'd have to rate it closer to not caring than laconic.

He's got a lot of ability and at least McCartney has plenty to work with but I don't quite think he gives 100%.

Everitt, Grant and Boumann all came from the Dandenong club over a couple of seasons and I don't think any of them really pushed themselves to reach their potential.

[Greystache]

Re: Forward line 2012

My concern about Panos making it to the next level has always been more around his mobility than ability. He's improved his body shape and fitness but he still has a lot of work to do if he is to become an AFL foward.

At the VFL I'm not sure he does impose himself on games but he has been good at making the most of the opportunities that present during a game.

He still has a bit of work to do on his football but his attitude seems great and I'm confident he will give it his all.

Agree with all of this.

He has football talent and a great attitude, that's 75% of the battle. Overcoming his weaknesses will be the challenge. I also think he is the type of player who could be benefit by the better skill level at AFL level.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Forward line 2012

Agree with all of this.

He has football talent and a great attitude, that's 75% of the battle. Overcoming his weaknesses will be the challenge. I also think he is the type of player who could be benefit by the better skill level at AFL level.

I agree with this.

I would like to see Panos play with a little more urgency/intensity. A couple of times he was caught ball watching a bit. He did follow this up with one strong lead -- almost marked it -- so there's something to work with.

We really need to teach/develop this list though. It's a real test for our coaching/support staff.