Commonwealth Games

[angelopetraglia]

Re: Commonwealth Games

This is not normal behavior. This is dictator like behavior. To channel Andrew's voice. We should not tolerate this today, tomorrow or at anytime. Refuses to answer any questions. Refuses any transparency. Just continues to lecture us like we are all primary school children. This is not how a functioning democracy is supposed to work.

How has it got to this?

************

Daniel Andrews has refused to detail how the government’s costings for the 2026 Commonwealth Games ballooned by over $4b and what the cost of scrapping the event will cost taxpayers.

The Premier was asked more than 10 times what taxpayers can expect to pay for the governments decisions to scrap the Games on Wednesday but said he did not have an answer for Victorians.

“We’re currently in negotiations on that very issue and I’m not going to cut across that,” he said.

“I am not engaging in an argument today or any day. We are instead focused on amicable and productive discussions that are going on in London.”

Mr Andrews also refused to apologise to the young athletes whose dream of competing on home soil in 2026 was shattered on Tuesday.

“You’re asking me to apologise for not running the Games and I’m not doing that,” he said.

“I understand that officials are disappointed, that athletes are disappointed but we’d all be pretty disappointed, I think, if we just push on and go and invest billions and billions and billions of dollars over and above the budget.”

“The government reserves the right to make its own decisions on behalf of Victorians.”

Mr Andrews refused to reveal who was responsible for making the final call to can the Games but said full cabinet was involved in discussions.

[Boots]

Re: Commonwealth Games

This is not normal behavior. This is dictator like behavior. To channel Andrew's voice. We should not tolerate this today, tomorrow or at anytime. Refuses to answer any questions. Refuses any transparency. Just continues to lecture us like we are all primary school children. This is not how a functioning democracy is supposed to work.

How has it got to this?

It's oddly simple: Four straight terms, a global pandemic, and a $180bn debt hole.

I think it's actually refreshing to see a polly be upfront about an unpopular decision. The decision is an almost alarmingly easy one - it will cost way more than we thought and the benefits aren't going to cover it. It's sad, and embarrassing, but at a $4bn projected overspend, nothing else even rates a mention in the decision matrix tbh.

I don't think we can even claim the blowout is due to incompetence. Nobody could have planned for the impact the pandemic have had on prices. This is playing out across all projects form private homes to massive infrastructure builds - it's just really visible here.

[hujsh]

Re: Commonwealth Games

I think that's kinda transparent no? He can't say how much it'll cost because it's not settled yet. You can see it as a good or bad thing to be negotiating that when the announcement has already been made that the games aren't happening but I don't think you can claim it's not transparent.

Also disagree that this isn't how a democracy is meant to work. It's 100% how democracy is meant to work. The flaws are just more noticeable when you disagree with the person or the outcome. As someone pretty non-plussed about the CW Games I don't really care but it if it was something that did matter to me I'd probably be annoyed by a response like that.

[hujsh]

Re: Commonwealth Games

It's oddly simple: Four straight terms, a global pandemic, and a $180bn debt hole.

I think it's actually refreshing to see a polly be upfront about an unpopular decision. The decision is an almost alarmingly easy one - it will cost way more than we thought and the benefits aren't going to cover it. It's sad, and embarrassing, but at a $4bn projected overspend, nothing else even rates a mention in the decision matrix tbh.

I don't think we can even claim the blowout is due to incompetence. Nobody could have planned for the impact the pandemic have had on prices. This is playing out across all projects form private homes to massive infrastructure builds - it's just really visible here.

One thing I've seen mentioned (not sure if it was in relation to the games or just inflation/property prices) is that infrastructure spending has caused the price of labor in those sectors to skyrocket. That could well be a major factor in the big price increase and I could see why it'd be a hard one to sell because it's arguably their own fault

[Sedat]

Re: Commonwealth Games

$2 billion is still going to be spent on Infrastructure, housing and tourism.

Will it? I have no respect whatsoever for any politicians or any political parties, but this particular one has frequently made promises in the past and has openly and brazenly not fulfilled them, and then goes to extraordinary lengths to conceal the reasons/hide the data (spending enormous taxpayer funds on legal representation in the process to hide/redact information from FOI). I'm frankly surprised anybody with a functioning ear for BS would blindly believe anything this bloke ever says or promises verbatim, but each to their own I suppose.

Specific to the Comm Games, it was only a couple of years ago he and Martin Pakula were publicly lauding themselves and the state for securing the event in 2026 - either he and his party were useless/incompetent then or useless/incompetent now (or both).

At the end of the day would you rather spend $7 billion for 12 days of sport or $2 billion that will deliver infrastructure and jobs for regional areas.

Again, you appear to be placing enormous faith in the words/promises of somebody who simply has no right to expect any such blind faith, based on his own previous actions. Of all companies, PWC provided the costings for the Comm Games (Utopia really writes itself these days). What is certainly obvious is that the original announcement (just prior to an election by sheer coincidence) certainly would have moved the needle in many country electorates. I will believe all this "amazing infrastructure and jobs for the regions" when I see it.

What we do know as fact is the Gold Coast 2018 Comm Games cost $1.3bn and Birmingham 2022 cost $1.5bn. I remain sceptical of any assertions that this Comm Games would suddenly balloon out to $7bn (notwithstanding inflationary pressures in the last 18 months, ironically mostly the fault of federal and state govt policy decisions), and I'm sure many others would rightly share this healthy scepticism.

For the Gov to cancel there must be some damning issues that brought this decision on.

Well the state coffers are obviously empty, but apparently they aren't empty enough for countless other major projects to go 2-3 times over budget and many years over time to continue unabated (one such vanity project not properly costed and not slated to be finished for another 50 years, whose total cost completely dwarfs all other major projects combined)

I do feel for athletes, but Olympics are on next year and there are many other events like World Championships.

Athletes don't have week-to-week opportunities to ply their trade. I think it is cruelty personified to deny them a precious opportunity to do so, for no real reason other than incompetence and not being able to undertake a basic level of budgeting and forecasting, not to mention pulling the rug from under them with no notice whatsoever.

Do you also feel for the business who pitched for and legitimately won contracts for various services to the Comm Games, and have already outlaid hundreds of thousands of dollars and have lost everything through no fault of their own? The horror stories are already starting to emerge and they are truly heartbreaking.


____________________________________________________________ ____________


None of the above is commentary on anything other than competence. I find political partisanship on all sides really tiresome and incredibly dull. On face value, yesterdays decision and the original decision less that 2 years ago to pitch for the hosting rights displays a level of incompetence that surprises even a cynical old Gen Xer like myself.

[Boots]

Re: Commonwealth Games

One thing I've seen mentioned (not sure if it was in relation to the games or just inflation/property prices) is that infrastructure spending has caused the price of labor in those sectors to skyrocket. That could well be a major factor in the big price increase and I could see why it'd be a hard one to sell because it's arguably their own fault

It's a huge problem. It's also impacting the housing supply market, which is disastrous for house prices. Welcome to inflationary spirals.

[angelopetraglia]

Re: Commonwealth Games

It's oddly simple: Four straight terms, a global pandemic, and a $180bn debt hole.

I think it's actually refreshing to see a polly be upfront about an unpopular decision. The decision is an almost alarmingly easy one - it will cost way more than we thought and the benefits aren't going to cover it. It's sad, and embarrassing, but at a $4bn projected overspend, nothing else even rates a mention in the decision matrix tbh.

I don't think we can even claim the blowout is due to incompetence. Nobody could have planned for the impact the pandemic have had on prices. This is playing out across all projects form private homes to massive infrastructure builds - it's just really visible here.

He decided to take on the Commonwealth Games post the pandemic and when he knew the level of his debt forecast. Crazy isn't it.

The decision to take on the Games was made in Jan 2022.

[macca]

Re: Commonwealth Games

I think that's kinda transparent no? He can't say how much it'll cost because it's not settled yet. You can see it as a good or bad thing to be negotiating that when the announcement has already been made that the games aren't happening but I don't think you can claim it's not transparent.

Also disagree that this isn't how a democracy is meant to work. It's 100% how democracy is meant to work. The flaws are just more noticeable when you disagree with the person or the outcome. As someone pretty non-plussed about the CW Games I don't really care but it if it was something that did matter to me I'd probably be annoyed by a response like that.

Is it 2bn to actualy cost, and $5 billion blow out, maybe its hard to hide it for the contract given to mates?

[hujsh]

Re: Commonwealth Games

Is it 2bn to actualy cost, and $5 billion blow out, maybe its hard to hide it for the contract given to mates?

Maybe. I was looking more at what the cost is to pull out of previous agreements. Seems more material to me because it's actually wasted money in a sense. Pulling out of the Games themselves doesn't mean much to me and would rather not see the state be gouged for 7bil than go through with it. If it gets more scrutiny on other projects and highlights who is taking advantage of the tax payer then I'm all for looking into it though for the sake of better future outcomes.

[Boots]

Re: Commonwealth Games

He decided to take on the Commonwealth Games post the pandemic and when he knew the level of his debt forecast. Crazy isn't it.

The decision to take on the Games was made in Jan 2022.

I didn't know that - that was stupid.

[angelopetraglia]

Re: Commonwealth Games

Maybe. I was looking more at what the cost is to pull out of previous agreements. Seems more material to me because it's actually wasted money in a sense. Pulling out of the Games themselves doesn't mean much to me and would rather not see the state be gouged for 7bil than go through with it. If it gets more scrutiny on other projects and highlights who is taking advantage of the tax payer then I'm all for looking into it though for the sake of better future outcomes.

Agree if that is what would happen.

But that is not what we are seeing. We are seeing zero apologies. Zero accountability for making incorrect decisions. Zero responsibility for getting the budget for the Games so wrong. Zero accountability for the terrible concept of having a "regional games" which was purely a political decision. Zero desire to understand what happened to ensure it doesn't happen again. So when you don't learn from your mistakes because you refuse to even answer even basic question. You don't admit any failing at all. "Not my fault!".

How do you have faith that we are going to get better outcomes moving forward?

[angelopetraglia]

Re: Commonwealth Games

I didn't know that - that was stupid.

Yes. Very.

What I have learnt over the journey with these type of story tellers (most politicians to be honest) is to pay far less attention to what they say and much more attention to what they do. What are the facts. What is not in dispute.

Dan only wants you to pay attention to what he tells you. He wants you to believe his fiction. Not the facts. The facts tell a bad story.

Facts

-We had a pandemic. It cost a lot of money.
-The price of everything went up.
-The cost of building exploded. Both material and labour.
-Timelines in building blew out because people could not get material or source the right amount of people
-The Government Debt exploded beyond what anyone forecasted
-The above all occurred prior to January 2022
-With all the above knowledge, Dan takes on the Commonwealth Games
-He also makes the unprecedented decision to make it a multiple town regional games. This has never, ever been done before.
-He takes this to the electorate as part of this election promise to support regional Victoria
-Many people said that the Regional games were not going to be viable due to lack of infrastructure and some events should be moved back to Melbourne (i.e. Rugby 7s). They refused.
-It all gets too hard. Too much money. Not a very good plan. Poor decisions. They cancel the Games.
-Dan refuses to tell us how much has already been spent. How much it will cost to tear up the contract.
-He sells it that he is now a savior for saving us from all these excessive costs.
-He refuses to apologize. He refuses to admit they did anything wrong.

The above is not opinion. It is all factual.

[hujsh]

Re: Commonwealth Games

Agree if that is what would happen.

But that is not what we are seeing. We are seeing zero apologies. Zero accountability for making incorrect decisions. Zero responsibility for getting the budget for the Games so wrong. Zero accountability for the terrible concept of having a "regional games" which was purely a political decision. Zero desire to understand what happened to ensure it doesn't happen again. So when you don't learn from your mistakes because you refuse to even answer even basic question. You don't admit any failing at all. "Not my fault!".

How do you have faith that we are going to get better outcomes moving forward?

That's what I would like. Not what I expect to happen. If this gets looked into it's by the Coalition for political points and they will repeat all the same mistakes they expose because both major political machines work in the same way. If anything I'm surprised we've pulled out instead of just spending the money because YOLO.

[angelopetraglia]

Re: Commonwealth Games

That's what I would like. Not what I expect to happen. If this gets looked into it's by the Coalition for political points and they will repeat all the same mistakes they expose because both major political machines work in the same way. If anything I'm surprised we've pulled out instead of just spending the money because YOLO.

Yes. It is the same on both sides. No doubt. Very sad state of affairs. The issue we have at the moment is one man being in power for too long who is now on an obvious power trip. There is a very good reason the Roman Republic limited consecutive terms and why the Founding Fathers of the USA also limited Presidential terms.

We also saw this type of hubris in John Howard's third term and we can really thank our lucky stars that we did not get a third term for Jeff Kennett. He was already insufferable in his second term.

[Boots]

Re: Commonwealth Games

Yes. Very.

What I have learnt over the journey with these type of story tellers (most politicians to be honest) is to pay far less attention to what they say and much more attention to what they do. What are the facts. What is not in dispute.

Dan only wants you to pay attention to what he tells you. He wants you to believe his fiction. Not the facts. The facts tell a bad story.

Facts

-We had a pandemic. It cost a lot of money.
-The price of everything went up.
-The cost of building exploded. Both material and labour.
-Timelines in building blew out because people could not get material or source the right amount of people
-The Government Debt exploded beyond what anyone forecasted
-The above all occurred prior to January 2022
-With all the above knowledge, Dan takes on the Commonwealth Games
-He also makes the unprecedented decision to make it a multiple town regional games. This has never, ever been done before.
-He takes this to the electorate as part of this election promise to support regional Victoria
-Many people said that the Regional games were not going to be viable due to lack of infrastructure and some events should be moved back to Melbourne (i.e. Rugby 7s). They refused.
-It all gets too hard. Too much money. Not a very good plan. Poor decisions. They cancel the Games.
-Dan refuses to tell us how much has already been spent. How much it will cost to tear up the contract.
-He sells it that he is now a savior for saving us from all these excessive costs.
-He refuses to apologize. He refuses to admit they did anything wrong.

The above is not opinion. It is all factual.

You'll have to forgive my laser-like focus on specific election commitments, I monitor some of them as part of my job (I'm in the VPS) and the ones that aren't on my list, I tend to just ignore.

That's why I'm more lenient in this case I suppose - I've seen first-hand the cost of holding on to election commitments in the face of sanity, mounting debt, and poor outcomes.

And I 100% agree with you that the flaw here originates from the adversarial basis of our system not functioning in this case. With no functioning opposition, there's very little accountability. Dan is perhaps taking advantage of that at times, but this is a very unusual situation and not one the Westminster System was built to manage.

Interestingly the same thing happened with FDR in the US, which is where the term limit came from. Very few pollies here make it through a fourth term without significant upheaval. Carr in NSW is the last one I can think of, and that was not great.