Hawthorn racism review

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

If the allegations are proven, all involved are finished in the game and not a moment too soon. That stuff is truly heinous. But it goes much, much deeper than that. This is potentially a seismic moment in professional sport in this country. How can senior players and senior executives not know about this? How can the governing body of the code not know? How can the AFLPA not know, who are supposed to represent the players? If proven, it makes a mockery of every stakeholder in the game.

It is always better to err on the side of caution and wait for innocence to be proven otherwise. It's what separates functioning democracies such as ours from savage authoritarian regimes. Everybody with a heart and a conscience woule be disgusted beyond words by what has been alleged, but IMO the pile-on should wait until the allegations are proven.

No doubt every person gets a defence, couldn’t agree more. But the case is such that the report authors found the complainants credible and were backed up by contemporaneous records that support the claims and records of involvement with the AFLPA. The report was found credible enough to immediately send to the the AFEL. These aren’t hearsay claims. There’s multiple ‘direct witnesses’ with contemporaneous records that appear to be corroborative of the claims, such they’ve been deemed credible already. They all get a defence, but the direct and corroborating evidence, while being independent ‘similar fact’ evidence, is enough to discuss this in a very serious way.

I suspect it will be ‘word vs word’ and with powerful interests that the AFEL will be conflicted in doing anything. The key is the contemporaneous records that are referenced in the main article. That may force the issue along with media scrutiny.

A logical discussion pointing out innocent until proven guilty is fine. Being sick about virtue signalling is a bridge to far. I’ve used the word ‘if’ so I’m not sure not sure if I’m a ‘virtue signaller’, but as I have no virtue I know it’s not me!

[Sedat]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

No doubt every person gets a defence, couldn’t agree more. But the case is such that the report authors found the complainants credible and were backed up by contemporaneous records that support the claims and records of involvement with the AFLPA. The report was found credible enough to immediately send to the the AFEL. These aren’t hearsay claims. They all get a defence, but the evidence is enough to discuss this in a very serious way.

I suspect it will be ‘word vs word’ and with powerful interests that the AFEL will be conflicted in doing anything. The key is the contemporaneous records that are referenced in the main article. That may force the issue along with media scrutiny.

A logical discussion pointing out innocent until proven guilty is fine. Being sick about virtue signalling is a bridge to far. I’ve used the word ‘if’ so I’m not sure not sure if a virtue signaller, but as I have no virtue I know it’s not me!

I think almost all of us are on a unity ticket with regard to discussing this in depth and in a serious way. There is no wriggle room out of this for all involved. And by 'all involved' I mean every stakeholder that I mentioned previously, not just those directly involved with the allegations. As I said, this goes way beyond the alleged actions of 3 senior staff members from one footy club. This will go nuclear.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

I think almost all of us are on a unity ticket with regard to discussing this in depth and in a serious way. There is no wriggle room out of this for all involved. And by 'all involved' I mean every stakeholder that I mentioned previously, not just those directly involved with the allegations. As I said, this goes way beyond the alleged actions of 3 senior staff members from one footy club. This will go nuclear.

For once the AFEL have got to do its job on integrity. If they go with ‘it’s was a joke’ and all three men lost their phones at the same time with Michael Talia then… who knows when the nuclear fallout ends and how far it goes. I hope the AFEL understands just how big this investigation is in the history of the league. Justice needs to be done, but also seen to be done. Not their strong suit.

[Bornadog]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

All I can add is stuff the coaches, I feel for the players in this and no body else. To be subjected to this behaviour is truly and utterly disgusting. I hope they have been getting help.

[1eyedog]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

I’ve just jumped onto WOOF for the first time in a while to see if there is any trade news. Stumbled across this thread. Sorry I opened it.

Gotta say, I can’t believe the conclusions being jumped to, here. Accusations are just that. The accused haven’t even been questioned as yet - let alone had a chance to defend themselves.

The accusations could be vast extrapolations on what the truth actually is. Misinterpretations of second hand discussions, compounded by resentment, the circling of wagons, personality clashes, unrelated grievances, or just plain misunderstandings.

The tendency to hang, draw and quarter in this forum is a reminder of why I’ve drifted away from it. Very little balance and members falling over themselves to virtue signal, whilst simultaneously knifing individuals like our senior coach on a whim.

It’s made me feel sick.

Sorry you feel like that. I've always enjoyed your contributions I hope this doesn't keep you away.

[Bornadog]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

For once the AFEL have got to do its job on integrity. If they go with ‘it’s was a joke’ and all three men lost their phones at the same time with Michael Talia then… who knows when the nuclear fallout ends and how far it goes. I hope the AFEL understands just how big this investigation is in the history of the league. Justice needs to be done, but also seen to be done. Not their strong suit.

The Hawks have had an external investigation and found lots of wrong doing and that has forced the AFL to also have an external investigation headed up by a KC. The AFL cannot wriggle out of this one.

Thank goodness the ABC published the story.

[Webby]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

To be clear, what makes me feel sick is SOME OF the commentary I’ve read in this thread suggesting that 1. the accusations are automatically true, 2. That Luke Beveridge would’ve been at Hawthorn at the time; 3. He therefore must’ve known about it: and 4. Beveridge is therefore somehow complicit..!

To me, that is both morally and intellectually weak.

So yeah, the character assassination of OUR coach based on a report which no one here has read and which none of the actual accused have had a chance to defend themselves is sickening. To think that people are Lindy Chamberlaining Luke Beveridge on a Dogs forum is SICKENING.

But cue typically predictable remarks about how I’m putting myself ahead of alleged victims and sarcastic barbs like “I hope you’re okay” are piss poor. Serves me right for jumping back on.

[hujsh]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

To be clear, what makes me feel sick is SOME OF the commentary I’ve read in this thread suggesting that 1. the accusations are automatically true, 2. That Luke Beveridge would’ve been at Hawthorn at the time; 3. He therefore must’ve known about it: and 4. Beveridge is therefore somehow complicit..!

To me, that is both morally and intellectually weak.

So yeah, the character assassination of OUR coach based on a report which no one here has read and which none of the actual accused have had a chance to defend themselves is sickening. To think that people are Lindy Chamberlaining Luke Beveridge on a Dogs forum is SICKENING.

But cue typically predictable remarks about how I’m putting myself ahead of alleged victims and sarcastic barbs like “I hope you’re okay” are piss poor. Serves me right for jumping back on.

Let's go point by point

1. the accusations are automatically true,

Not automatic but very unlikely to be untrue given what we know

2. That Luke Beveridge would’ve been at Hawthorn at the time;

Well I think this is a fact. At least for part of the period in question

3. He therefore must’ve known about it: and 4. Beveridge is therefore somehow complicit..!

Don't believe I've seen either of the above. Speculation on whether he might know but right now it seems likely he'd be named if he was since Clarkson and Fagan were.

If you want to defend Bevo at least point out the comments you found so offensive so we know what you're talking about.

Don't get mad people for not responding favourably if you regurgitate culture war BS about virtue signaling, directing it towards the majority of the board (implied in your post) and casting doubts on the statements of the victims that seem entirely credible just because there's the slight hint it might harm Beveridge. I don't think what you wrote reads the way you think it does. It doesn't make you seem more logical than anyone else here. Just driven by different emotions.

If Bevo is the person he seems to be and presents himself as he should be fine. He'd not have been involved in the actions alleged. If he was involved then it's maybe time to move on. I doubt anyone will 'knife' him before at least having allegations directed at him. The question of whether Clarkson and Fagan were involved and the allegations are true seems much more certain. Not 100% but enough to take this all VERY seriously.

[Grantysghost]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

To be clear, what makes me feel sick is SOME OF the commentary I’ve read in this thread suggesting that 1. the accusations are automatically true, 2. That Luke Beveridge would’ve been at Hawthorn at the time; 3. He therefore must’ve known about it: and 4. Beveridge is therefore somehow complicit..!

To me, that is both morally and intellectually weak.

So yeah, the character assassination of OUR coach based on a report which no one here has read and which none of the actual accused have had a chance to defend themselves is sickening. To think that people are Lindy Chamberlaining Luke Beveridge on a Dogs forum is SICKENING.

But cue typically predictable remarks about how I’m putting myself ahead of alleged victims and sarcastic barbs like “I hope you’re okay” are piss poor. Serves me right for jumping back on.

I think most were just asking the question and hoping he wasn’t involved so being protective.

My opinion is if he was then he should be of course given due process, but the allegations are so serious if he was involved I’d have a hard time following a side he coaches.

[jeemak]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

As always Matthew Stokes brings calm and reasoned perspective via this article (and for the record, I'm sure he's not bloody calm and is doing an amazing job in remaining reasoned):

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/goyder-and-mclachlan-need-to-take-responsibility-20220921-p5bjxh.html

Voices like his are the voices we need to be hearing right now, not the white anglo-male voices who have access to the megaphone cupboard. He's absolutely right in his assessment of the AFLs leadership and it's the right time for a change at the top and a change in attitude to go with it.

The concept of virtue signaling has always been a bit weird to me, I mean, what else do critics of it want signaled if not virtue (that's a philosophical digression that won't serve any purpose here)? However, if it was to be an accusation levelled at anyone let's not level it here and actually look to the organisation that uses its indigenous stakeholders as a marketing tool when it suits, but continually lets those stakeholders down through a lack of action and meaningful change in how their past, present and future are treated.

The majority of the balance of stakeholders are ready for change, and the majority of those who aren't just need some leadership to help them on the journey. I'm not sympathetic towards the latter, but I can try to understand the difficulty they have with change and they'll never get there if they don't have people of influence rallying them to move forwards.

[Scraggers]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

Wow … I am mortified to think that in this day and age this sort of treatment of First Nation people is possible. But then again I’m not. The cultural divide that is mostly unspoken in Australia is incredulous. I’m not just talking racism, I’m talking about a complete lack of understanding of the differences of culture. The article talks about the importance of family for an indigenous person, but as most read that, they put a non-indigenous perspective on it. It goes so much deeper than needing mum and dad close by or having contact with the wife/girlfriend/partner (both which were allegedly denied). The First Nation family is more what “white Australia” would consider the broader community. Their strength (not just support or confidence) is in their family bonds. To not be with family, to be denied the ability to be with your child/ren, to be told to disown your child … just WOW.

If any part of these allegations are true, Clarkson and Fagan (and all others that are implicated in the report) must be removed from their position/s of power immediately. They must undergo further education to gain a greater understanding of First Nation culture and heritage. They must meet with these families (if willing) and apologise.

I am truly mortified by the extent of these accusations and hope these players and their families will find peace.

[jazzadogs]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

I think the conversation has been pretty balanced. Shock at what we've read, but almost everyone has said "if they were involved..." or similar. The questions on Bevo were entirely reasonable - he was at Hawthorn at the time, and I think these allegations cloud everyone involved in that club until more is known.

[Bornadog]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

I think the conversation has been pretty balanced. Shock at what we've read, but almost everyone has said "if they were involved..." or similar. The questions on Bevo were entirely reasonable - he was at Hawthorn at the time, and I think these allegations cloud everyone involved in that club until more is known.

We actually don't know the period the allegations took place ie the exact dates, so other than the named coaches, we don't know if any other coaches involvement at the club was during the same time.

[GVGjr]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

I think the conversation has been pretty balanced. Shock at what we've read, but almost everyone has said "if they were involved..." or similar. The questions on Bevo were entirely reasonable - he was at Hawthorn at the time, and I think these allegations cloud everyone involved in that club until more is known.

Same here, it's a massive story and very emotional to read. It has the potential to have a wide reaching impact to many clubs and it's on the AFL to get it right. I think Gil need to delay his departure from the AFL and see this through before handing the keys too the door over to someone else.

[MrMahatma]

Re: Hawthorn racism review

Same here, it's a massive story and very emotional to read. It has the potential to have a wide reaching impact to many clubs and it's on the AFL to get it right. I think Gil need to delay his departure from the AFL and see this through before handing the keys too the door over to someone else.

Maybe… or maybe Gil and his approach to governance and reviews is part of the problem? Has he ever done anything that would give us reason to believe that this won’t be “managed” and prob just the lesser known involved take the fall? Gil’s AFL will want Clarkson coaching North. Will want Brisbane to remain competitive.

I have little faith that Gil can and will deliver anything meaningful on this one.