Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

[Sedat]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Sweet competed well but in the last quarter there was a 15-minute stretch where Meek just owned him at/around the stop with his follow up work.

Meek was a hugely influential player in the EF and has been in their 15-4 run this season - Sweet did an excellent job blunting his influence for most of the night. Meek got a hold of him late but that is to be expected against an inferior player (no disrespect at all to Sweet, he gives all that he has). Sweet is an honest footballer who has clear limitations, but what he does is hold his ground at stoppage with his body strength, which prevents the oppo from getting clean clearances out the front of stoppage. Most of the night Hawthorn couldn't get the ball in space and lacked supply into F50 as a result, which stopped the nipsies from cashing in (Watson was amazing, Ginny had a couple of moments but Moore and Macdonald were both really poor).

In finals, the obvious weakness Sweet has around the ground is less exposed because of the lift in pressure and less ball in space. Conversely this blunts English's natural advantages and exposes his clear weaknesses, which is why he is batting 0 for 7 good finals performances in his career to date - we've never won a final with English as no 1 ruck. And at 27yo and 8 years in the system, I personally cannot see his obvious weakness ever improving in the matches that really matter.

I also wonder how sick and tired our mids are of not being able to play assertive stoppage football, always on the back foot because they correctly assume that English will concede first hands due to his lack of strength and competitiveness against his direct opponent.

[josie]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Thanks for that analysis Sedat. I agree.

Do woofers think coaches will finally change their ruck approach now English has signed on for another 5 years?

Could English play in defence with L Jones and Lobb and is he physical enough? He’s done some good part time fill the hole extra man roles down back but he is also sometimes easily pushed off & doesn’t crash packs.

Could he play wing with his attributes?

And if he cannot play either role (plus 2nd ruck) would coaches have the guts to drop him to VFL?

I think the continued trust of English as 1st ruck against more physical rucks, big games & in finals has to be close to the biggest weakness if not the biggest weakness our current approach has. The flow on to our mids having to play out of their skin, for us to be in with a chance to win (when English can’t break even at centre bounces and at clearances), is not sustainable.

[Bornadog]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

(when English can’t break even at centre bounces and at clearances), is not sustainable.

Bulldogs are ranked 2nd best team for clearances - Brisbane one.

[MrMahatma]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Thanks for that analysis Sedat. I agree.

Do woofers think coaches will finally change their ruck approach now English has signed on for another 5 years?

Could English play in defence with L Jones and Lobb and is he physical enough? He’s done some good part time fill the hole extra man roles down back but he is also sometimes easily pushed off & doesn’t crash packs.

Could he play wing with his attributes?

And if he cannot play either role (plus 2nd ruck) would coaches have the guts to drop him to VFL?

I think the continued trust of English as 1st ruck against more physical rucks, big games & in finals has to be close to the biggest weakness if not the biggest weakness our current approach has. The flow on to our mids having to play out of their skin, for us to be in with a chance to win (when English can’t break even at centre bounces and at clearances), is not sustainable.

Will the coaches change him from #1 ruck? No
Will they drop him? No
Are we stuck with the same sh1t from English for the next 5 years. Yes. Yes we are.

[josie]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Bulldogs are ranked 2nd best team for clearances - Brisbane one.

Thanks BAD. Do you think English’s lack of physical presence contributes to our poor finals record and inability to reach top 4 which is linked to our inability to win more than 4 games in a row (I think our list is good enough to have reached top 4).

In games we lost by a fair margin IIRC our mids were well below their normal high standards (recent games that come to mind; Hawks in elim final, Port, Crows). And one of the main reasons we were pantsed was IMO English did not break even with their physical rucks. We beat up some bottom 8 teams as evidenced by our healthy % so we’d win clearances in those games by a fair margin, which skews average.

I’m aware of possibility of supporters like me, who have doubts about Tim as no 1 ruck, sub consciously looking for evidence to support our hunches and ignoring other evidence, so I welcome healthy debate.

[Bornadog]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Thanks BAD. Do you think English’s lack of physical presence contributes to our poor finals record and inability to reach top 4 which is linked to our inability to win more than 4 games in a row (I think our list is good enough to have reached top 4).

In games we lost by a fair margin IIRC our mids were well below their normal high standards (recent games that come to mind; Hawks in elim final, Port, Crows). And one of the main reasons we were pantsed was IMO English did not break even with their physical rucks. We beat up some bottom 8 teams as evidenced by our healthy % so we’d win clearances in those games by a fair margin, which skews average.

I’m aware of possibility of supporters like me, who have doubts about Tim as no 1 ruck, sub consciously looking for evidence to support our hunches and ignoring other evidence, so I welcome healthy debate.

You can't blame Tim for losing finals - that is down to the team effort on the day. Against the Hawks, we won the clearances - yes by 7, but we did lose the contested possessions and Hawks were good at locking the ball into their forward half, so our inside 50s were well down on what we have achieved in the past.

I think some people are living in the past if they think 50 hitouts win you the game and the ruck does nothing around the ground. Look at Sweet v Geelong - 51 hitouts and Port got done by 84 points.

Tim was AA last year because he was the best ruckman. This year he had a poorer year, but on stats alone he was still up around the 5th, 6th best ruck. Ranked third in contested Marks. If he was timid as some disrespectful people say, then why would he be 3rd best in contested marks for all ruckman????

He is not a bullocking ruck and he doesn't have to be - he does his job around the ground and makes sure our mids get the clearances around the stoppages. His centre clearances this year have not been the best, but we were still ranked 7th. Stoppage clearance we were 3rd best.

I hope we are not going to debate Tim for the next 5 years, as he is not the issue. the issue lies in other areas of the ground.

I think ruck duties will be shared more in the next few years with Darcy.

[MrMahatma]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

You can't blame Tim for losing finals - that is down to the team effort on the day. Against the Hawks, we won the clearances - yes by 7, but we did lose the contested possessions and Hawks were good at locking the ball into their forward half, so our inside 50s were well down on what we have achieved in the past.

I think some people are living in the past if they think 50 hitouts win you the game and the ruck does nothing around the ground. Look at Sweet v Geelong - 51 hitouts and Port got done by 84 points.

Tim was AA last year because he was the best ruckman. This year he had a poorer year, but on stats alone he was still up around the 5th, 6th best ruck. Ranked third in contested Marks. If he was timid as some disrespectful people say, then why would he be 3rd best in contested marks for all ruckman????

He is not a bullocking ruck and he doesn't have to be - he does his job around the ground and makes sure our mids get the clearances around the stoppages. His centre clearances this year have not been the best, but we were still ranked 7th. Stoppage clearance we were 3rd best.

I hope we are not going to debate Tim for the next 5 years, as he is not the issue. the issue lies in other areas of the ground.

I think ruck duties will be shared more in the next few years with Darcy.

Do you mean he's not AN issue? As in, at all?

I agree he's not THE issue... but him getting predictably bullied, and putting in shockers in finals most certainly is AN issue. Surely?

[Bornadog]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Do you mean he's not AN issue? As in, at all?

I agree he's not THE issue... but him getting predictably bullied, and putting in shockers in finals most certainly is AN issue. Surely?

I was talking in general. Finals he has not performed well but so have most of the team not performed.

[Sedat]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

You can't blame Tim for losing finals - that is down to the team effort on the day. Against the Hawks, we won the clearances - yes by 7, but we did lose the contested possessions and Hawks were good at locking the ball into their forward half, so our inside 50s were well down on what we have achieved in the past.

Respectfully disagree BAD. Tim's total lack of competitiveness as no 1 ruck was THE key reason we lost the 2020 EF and 2022 EF - in both games his direct opponent utterly destroyed Tim at stoppage and had a huge say in the end result (both were close losses). We just don't lose either game if we had even a semi-competitive stoppage ruckman. Tim was also extremely poor in the 2019 EF, 2021 GF and 2024 EF, but these were all blow-outs so his non-competitive performances in ruck were not the sole reason we lost these 3 games - "everyone else was crap" is not much of an argument for Tim to hang his hat on. Worse, he has been unable to impact positively in any final with his great aerobic capacity and around the ground strength.

It is irrefutable that, to date in his career, Tim is one of the worst finals performers in the entire competition (7 finals is a plenty big enough sample size), and it is the one consistently recurring issue in all our finals failures since 2019 - it was such an obvious problem in 2021 that we deployed Lewis Young as no 1 ruck in 2 finals and then old man Stef Martin off a 4-month injury layoff in the next 2. At what point does our coaching team change course, or will they continue to back in a perennial finals flop in a role that he has proven to date (over 6 seasons now) incapable of delivering on if we make finals again? It is obviously AN issue for 6 years and it has been THE issue in at least 2 of those finals losses.

Sam Darcy is an elite key forward in the making but he will also be a successful stoppage ruckman in years to come - he has that competitive drive and hunger to beat his direct opponent that English just doesn't possess. We can't jettison someone we just gave 5 years to, so it is up to Bevo and the MC to work out how to make the most of English and Darcy's talents so that they best benefit the team in big games, because doing the same shit over and over again will more than likely lead to nothing but Bevo getting sacked and us not having any future success when it matters.

[comrade]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

English to CHB

[Sedat]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

English to CHB

English to wing preferred for mine. He is on paper a good option for CHB but his lack of competitive appetite could be exposed aerially close to opposition goal.

Blicavs is basically a spare parts player used more often than not as link-up/wingman for Geelong - English would be a real handful for any opposition to counter wide in space, both attacking and running back to help out defence.

[Bornadog]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Respectfully disagree BAD. Tim's total lack of competitiveness as no 1 ruck was THE key reason we lost the 2020 EF and 2022 EF - in both games his direct opponent utterly destroyed Tim at stoppage and had a huge say in the end result (both were close losses). We just don't lose either game if we had even a semi-competitive stoppage ruckman. Tim was also extremely poor in the 2019 EF, 2021 GF and 2024 EF, but these were all blow-outs so his non-competitive performances in ruck were not the sole reason we lost these 3 games - "everyone else was crap" is not much of an argument for Tim to hang his hat on. Worse, he has been unable to impact positively in any final with his great aerobic capacity and around the ground strength.

It is irrefutable that, to date in his career, Tim is one of the worst finals performers in the entire competition (7 finals is a plenty big enough sample size), and it is the one consistently recurring issue in all our finals failures since 2019 - it was such an obvious problem in 2021 that we deployed Lewis Young as no 1 ruck in 2 finals and then old man Stef Martin off a 4-month injury layoff in the next 2. At what point does our coaching team change course, or will they continue to back in a perennial finals flop in a role that he has proven to date (over 6 seasons now) incapable of delivering on if we make finals again? It is obviously AN issue for 6 years and it has been THE issue in at least 2 of those finals losses.

Sam Darcy is an elite key forward in the making but he will also be a successful stoppage ruckman in years to come - he has that competitive drive and hunger to beat his direct opponent that English just doesn't possess. We can't jettison someone we just gave 5 years to, so it is up to Bevo and the MC to work out how to make the most of English and Darcy's talents so that they best benefit the team in big games, because doing the same shit over and over again will more than likely lead to nothing but Bevo getting sacked and us not having any future success when it matters.

Well I respectfully disagree that one player was the reason we lost those finals.

[josie]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Well I respectfully disagree that one player was the reason we lost those finals.

I don’t think it’s only because of Tim we lost those finals. However I do think it had a big contribution.

As woofers have been saying we need to even the load out & not rely on Bont and Treloar to carry team in their backs. Part of this is finding and playing more mids with leg speed. Richards has really helped in this regard but we need more players of that type.

[GVGjr]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

You can't blame Tim for losing finals - that is down to the team effort on the day. Against the Hawks, we won the clearances - yes by 7, but we did lose the contested possessions and Hawks were good at locking the ball into their forward half, so our inside 50s were well down on what we have achieved in the past.

I think some people are living in the past if they think 50 hitouts win you the game and the ruck does nothing around the ground. Look at Sweet v Geelong - 51 hitouts and Port got done by 84 points.

Tim was AA last year because he was the best ruckman. This year he had a poorer year, but on stats alone he was still up around the 5th, 6th best ruck. Ranked third in contested Marks. If he was timid as some disrespectful people say, then why would he be 3rd best in contested marks for all ruckman????

He is not a bullocking ruck and he doesn't have to be - he does his job around the ground and makes sure our mids get the clearances around the stoppages. His centre clearances this year have not been the best, but we were still ranked 7th. Stoppage clearance we were 3rd best.

I hope we are not going to debate Tim for the next 5 years, as he is not the issue. the issue lies in other areas of the ground.

I think ruck duties will be shared more in the next few years with Darcy.

That's a fair and very reasonable response and the counter to that is, as Sedat points out, we have now seen a sample size in finals footy that should raise the question on how effective English actually is in finals. I'm not looking at stats here because they're often interpreted they way people want to but the eye-test on his finals isn't impressive.
We need to find a way that Darcy and even Lobb can better support him in big games and we probably need to bring in a ruck coach to help him improve.
English often provides our midfield with a point of difference but he also lets us down in the big games. We have made a long term commitment so now need to find a way of getting some more improvement from him.

[Bornadog]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

That's a fair and very reasonable response and the counter to that is, as Sedat points out, we have now seen a sample size in finals footy that should raise the question on how effective English actually is in finals. I'm not looking at stats here because they're often interpreted they way people want to but the eye-test on his finals isn't impressive.
We need to find a way that Darcy and even Lobb can better support him in big games and we probably need to bring in a ruck coach to help him improve.
English often provides our midfield with a point of difference but he also lets us down in the big games. We have made a long term commitment so now need to find a way of getting some more improvement from him.

Doesn't ex Ruckman, Lade coach him?