Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

[GVGjr]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Tim English won't play for us if he doesn't play first ruck.

I've heard that mentioned a few times but I'm only advocating that we use Sweet from time to time. If that's all what it takes to push him over then he's not as committed to the club as he should be. He will see the bigger picture.

[Grantysghost]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Maybe. I haven't seen if there are stats that measure that. We had Ben Hudson that was a specialist at it.
I do remember so of the best football we have played over the past 3 years have been with 2 rucks and Englsih as the No 2.

Think you got him there.

[Grantysghost]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Port got 6 goals within 2 minutes of a centre bounce. That includes retrieving the ball from the crowd. 4 of them were direct:
22, 70, 72, and 85 seconds. The other 2 are not classed as directly from the ruck although it was a major factor.

These incidents have a significant impact on the result. Preventing the direct exit is more important than chipping the ball forward and then turning it over.

Let?s quantify it. I suggest that preventing a centre clearance goal is worth at least as much as the 3 handballs followed by 2 poor kicks that we are seeing frequently. Oh I forgot, and the losses they have been causing.

I've almost been convinced. You guys are like Viv Richards... Playing the mind games.

Sweet in.

[Rocco Jones]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

We'll be fine because we have Jordon Sweet. Keep up!

We'll be sweet*

[Grantysghost]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Tim wants to be the number one ruck. It was strongly implied he wasn't happy with playing second fiddle to SSSM in an article/ interview with his manager and all but firmly asserted by Bevo a couple of times last year.

All of these hypotheticals seem inane to me because of that, and also because of the myth Jordon Sweet is some sort of competent tap ruckman at the elite level.

I reckon that's over played. It was Bevo firing a shot across the bows via an interview from memory I've never heard Tim say this.

[jeemak]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

I reckon that's over played. It was Bevo firing a shot across the bows via an interview from memory I've never heard Tim say this.

I didn't say Tim said it.

[Danjul]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

So the games we won where Jordon Sweet played and lost the hit outs we won because the impact of the hit outs weren't as great as when Tim loses the hit outs.

From 2022.

Bonts highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck with English.

Treloars highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck both times.

Wests highest number of disposals was 19. Sweet was the ruck.

West kicked 3 goals in a game and 2 twice. Who was the ruck in those games? Sweet.

It is called synergy.

[Grantysghost]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

I didn't say Tim said it.

I heard Bevo say it too I just wonder how true it is.

Wasn't disagreeing.

I can't imagine a player, especially a guy like Tim being that demanding.

Was maybe more like a preference that his agent amplified which annoyed Bevo who took a crack back via the media.

Tim hasn't played forward since though!

[jeemak]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

From 2022.

Bonts highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck.

Treloars highest number of disposals in a game was 34. Sweet was the ruck both times.

Wests highest number of disposals was 19. Sweet was the ruck.

West kicked 3 goals in a game and 2 twice. Who was the ruck in those games? Sweet.

It is called synergy.

I get it. Sweet wins games by losing the hit outs but making everyone else around him play better.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

This. What if Tim leaves for a monster offer? We?re flat out ****ed.

I'm fine if Tim wants to leave. We would be adequately compensated and if there's any position on the ground where you don't need a 'star', just somebody who is physical/competes, the ruck is it.

Nank/Hudson types are perfectly fine.

I mean, we won a flag with Roughead as our main ruck.

Identifying the next Nank/Hudson would be great. O'Brien (Crows) and Darcy (Freo) are probably the modern day versions, but there will be others.

[Rocco Jones]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

We are 9-2 with Sweet in the side.

He was dropped the week after both losses.

I am taking no sides. Just stating objective facts.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Just to add on to my previous post, Collingwood traded Grundy - one of the best in the modern era - because they overpaid for a position you should never overpay in.

They now use Cameron and Cox and are probably flag favourites.

** Pretty sure I suggested Cox 2 years ago

Losing English is far from catastrophic.

[macca]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Just to add on to my previous post, Collingwood traded Grundy - one of the best in the modern era - because they overpaid for a position you should never overpay in.

They now use Cameron and Cox and are probably flag favourites.

** Pretty sure I suggested Cox 2 years ago

Losing English is far from catastrophic.

Cameron has added fwd marking to his game and looks stronger and able to hold the number 1 ruck position

Cox is a tall forward who can provide chop out in the ruck. His actually an accurate kick

My point is, you don't need super ruckman, just someone who can provide a contest, keep a stoppage and give our mids first use of it. Instead we have not a number 1 ruck in English, who loses the hitouts against good ruck. Our mids work their backsides off to win the contest.

I don't really know what else they expect of Sweet, what is lacking in his game , other than his not agile, does not have great skillls for a big man, is an ordinary mark . Can he hold a number 1 ruck position though against bigger mature rucks ? We have the rest of the season to find out.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

I don't really have a strong opinion on Sweet. We definitely could have tried to fit him in more, he showed some OK signs, but he also struggled at times.

I'd prefer Cox to Lobb, and he would have been a freebie.

[Scorlibo]

Re: Sweet Jesus: Should Jordan Sweet be our first ruck?

Using either scores from clearances or games won as the stats of choice to justify an opinion on ruck selection is not where I would start. Both of those stats involve a huge number of variables. In the case of scores from centre clearance, it's not just the ruckwork, it's not even just the mids' input. It's the input of all players forward of the centre. And let's put the Port numbers in perspective - didn't two of those goals start from free kicks in ruck lotto? Those could just as easily go our way this week.

More to the point... I'm all for experimenting if our season goes down the drain over the next few weeks. In the meantime, this is the pertinent question for me:

Danjul, do you believe the around the ground work English does against fellow ruckmen will be basically replicated to equal value if he is up against mids or playing forward?

We have a player who most consider to be the best in his position so far this year, he could very well be leading our B&F, and the potential for limiting his output should be a concern with this move. So where would he play?

English can follow the ball more closely. He has excellent footy smarts and reads the play better than most. And he has a big tank.

This would put significant pressure on the opposition. He would take some ruck contests but I would be trying to conserve his energy to maximise his game time.

Does this mean him playing as a centre bounce midfielder Danjul? He's very good below his knees for a ruckman, but I don't think he should play there ahead of Smith, Macrae or Daniel.

I could see him having an impact on a wing, and if the experiment were to go ahead that's where I'd fancy trying him. I doubt he'd perform to the same standard at ground level, but he could probably have just as much impact in the air.

I'd contend there is no position where he'd make the same marginal impact he gives us now in the ruck. Anywhere else and we're getting less of out Tim.

Now that wouldn't be such a big deal if we had Sean Darcy to bring into the mix at the hitouts, but Sweet isn't that player. It's debatable that he offers less than Tim does at the hitouts, given Tim's improvement in that area this year, and Sweet's lacklustre VFL season to date. On VFL form Sweet might be lucky to keep his spot on the list.