Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

[GVGjr]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

Yes that really worked well. If that's the case its straight out BS to your members and treating them with contempt.
Do you think they bought it?

It was more about justification for getting a new coach and shifting the blame off themselves.

We all know they have been doing that for years. It's just this year that we have decided to make it a focus.
There are plenty of things to be upset about with the way we are playing but to get all focused on the difference between the terminology should be a low priority.

[Maddog37]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

As soon as we activated our compo picks it was obvious we were not interested in winning games this year.

Our primary focus is list evaluation and player development. Must be shocking for the senior players that are used to winning games. Guys like Griff and Boyd are playing with no joie de vivre.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

Are you saying that he lost the power to impose his thoughts and put the recruiting team under the microscope for every decision to make?
Would a newly appointed recruiting manager really ignore the vision and input of a respected senior coach?
Rightly or wrongly I'm led to believe that McCartney imposed his will with the recruiting and drafting late last year.
I might be missing something here but are you saying that the same recruiting team would listen to a new coach more than a senior one?

I'm asking not saying.
What I know he let Clayton handle contracts which he did well and when Fantasia took over that role it turned to poo.
To me it seems only 1 person has been blamed here when he may have been only a part of it.

[GVGjr]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

I'm asking not saying.
What I know he let Clayton handle contracts which he did well and when Fantasia took over that role it turned to poo.
To me it seems only 1 person has been blamed here when he may have been only a part of it.

You have missed the point here and if you go and read some of the previous comments all I'm saying that some are focused on McCartney when in fact there are a number of reasons why we are where we are.
What I'm not getting from you in particular is that Eade has some level of accountability in why we are playing so poorly.
I think we need to acknowledge that McCartney has inherited a poor list as well.
It's not Eade's fault nor is it for Fantasia, Clayton Dalrymple or Smorgon.
As a group they have all failed if this is the standard of our playing list.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

It was a play on words to try and keep the membership numbers. I wish there was a way of telling people exactly how it is and for them not to drop off but a lot of people shut down with the truth especially when it's not what they want to hear.

Rebuild or Refresh doesn't matter in the slightest at the moment.

I understand the motives behind the message, and the fears of a membership drop-off. However I wonder if in hindsight it's actually one of the reasons for the larger drop-off in crowd numbers at our games and going forward wonder if it will make it even harder for the club to sell memberships.

There seemed to be an unhealthy amount of optimism being promised by the club, and I have no doubt many fans bought into it. I wonder if these fans will be as full of hope by season's end and whether they will be inclined to pony up the cash next year when they are once again asked to get on board.

As a club we've seen alot of disappointment, and by and large I think we are well conditioned as a supporter base to cope with onfield disappointment. However I think we are also very quick to jump on any signs of hope, and when the club says things are looking bright this resonates with a large part of our fan-base.

The club has gone out of it's way this year to fan unrealistic expectations via recruiting too. Have a look at some of the statements early on to the media about interest at times in Cloke, and Boak or subtle mentions about how we are well positioned to land a player by virtue of our salary cap position.

Next thing fans are going banana's on line about possibly landing a quality player via trade/free agency, when in all truth we as a club have NEVER, EVER landed a quality player and we certainly aren't going to land one now.

Confusingly, after a couple of weeks of this, we then come out and say 'We will develop our own', and that we aren't interested in Cloke.
We never were, and there was nothing to gain from planting the seed publically otherwise.

I think given the change of coach, it was an opportunity to sell the truth and to sell a message of 'members getting in on the ground floor of a new direction of a new breed of bulldogs.' And as the season progressed the club could've positioned this year as an opportunity for fans to get behind this next generation, And as results went against us to remind the fans that the season won't be measured necessarily in wins, but in player development and setting things up going forward for sustained success.

In short, I think the whole club could've made a better effort in reducing the cognitive dissonance between on field reality and fan expectations, instead of promoting a line that clearly did the opposite.

And I don't think the club's message has done the new coach any favours, and might be some of the reason why he might be attracting unfair criticism.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

As soon as we activated our compo picks it was obvious we were not interested in winning games this year.

You are kidding me if you think we are tanking. None of our losses of recent have been honourable ones. If we were tanking, Gilbee for one wouldn't be playing.
Not interested in winning didn't work too well at Melbourne either.

[Desipura]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

Not tanking, just a poor team.

I to now believe we are tanking (putting faith in the kids even after a few bad games). The team selections each week baffles me. Playing players in positions they are not suited to, players rested after 1 to 2 weeks in the seniors. Players who played reasonably well get rested the following week.
Not picking players based on match ups.
I cannot ever recall where any of us have gone remotely close to picking the same team the following week as the MC.
Cordy has has a number of ordinary games yet he still plays him. Howard by all reports had a shocker last week and he was not dropped, I think it is a form of tanking.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

You have missed the point here and if you go and read some of the previous comments all I'm saying that some are focused on McCartney when in fact there are a number of reasons why we are where we are.
What I'm not getting from you in particular is that Eade has some level of accountability in why we are playing so poorly.
I think we need to acknowledge that McCartney has inherited a poor list as well.
It's not Eade's fault nor is it for Fantasia, Clayton Dalrymple or Smorgon.
As a group they have all failed if this is the standard of our playing list.

This list got us to top 4 not long ago.
We dropped a little last year. We are now bottom 4.
I think the current situation has more too do with current structure than it does to last years.

[Desipura]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

The fact is we got rid of a good coach for a crap one.

Not only is this an unfair comment on BMac, it is way too premature.
Were you one of Eades mates as well?
BMac inherited this list, that is FACT. I think he should be given an opportunity to try and develop it like Eade was.
BMAC has a very good reputation for developing people, I am willing to be more patient with him.

[Mantis]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

Eade approach to Ward wasn't always accepted as a positive.

And?

It's actually you that is assuming that my comments are an assumption.

So you believe Eade didn't try a number of different methods to try and get the best out of these players?... Really??

Most good coaches don't tow the line of just letting the recruiters do their part and I think it's a failure of both our longer term recent coaches in Eade and Wallace that seem to distance themselves from it.
Sheedy for example was front and centre of all list management and recruiting decisions.

As pointed out by others after the 2007 review a footy manager was hired to take the list manager responsibilites out of Eade's portfolio as he was doing too much.

Pretty sure Eade had his say, but others were hired to care for this role.

------

This is going around in circles... Eade's gone, B-Mac is here.

For any number of reasons I'm more disappointed now than I have been in previous years... Sorry for expressing my disappointment.

[The Underdog]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

This list got us to top 4 not long ago.
We dropped a little last year. We are now bottom 4.
I think the current situation has more too do with current structure than it does to last years.

It's also largely to do with the players of that era getting older and retiring or not being as effective, the loss of Cooney's fitness, the loss of Ward and Harbrow from the list and some horrendous drafting during those years. The absence of good 22-24 yo's is very apparent. This list is not a very good one.
I haven't been rapt with the lack of an apparent game plan once we get possession but think it's too early to bury McCartney yet

[Maddog37]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

You are kidding me if you think we are tanking. None of our losses of recent have been honourable ones. If we were tanking, Gilbee for one wouldn't be playing.
Not interested in winning didn't work too well at Melbourne either.

I never said it was a good thing nor did I say we are trying to lose. I just said winning is not the major focus this year.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

It's also largely to do with the players of that era getting older and retiring or not being as effective, the loss of Cooney's fitness, the loss of Ward and Harbrow from the list and some horrendous drafting during those years. The absence of good 22-24 yo's is very apparent. This list is not a very good one.
I haven't been rapt with the lack of an apparent game plan once we get possession but think it's too early to bury McCartney yet

I agree Underdog, and combined with some of the points GVG and others have raised with regard to list management/recruitment decisions over the course of the last 3 years have left McCartney with a very ordinary list. Which to me is why the club should not have been more realistic with it's appraisal of our short to medium term hopes.

I know the refresh line was perhaps meant to be a throwaway line in one press conference, however it was made in the one press conference that most Bulldog fans were likely to hear and was repeated in the media.
Agree we need to give McCartney an opportunity to shape his team and give him the time to buld the team. I just don't think the club leaders, through some of it's actions and comments have necessariy made his job easier.

[chef]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

I never said it was a good thing nor did I say we are trying to lose. I just said winning is not the major focus this year.

Yep, it's all about education apparently.

[The Underdog]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R17 Western Bulldogs vs Carlton

Yep, it's all about education apparently.

Hopefully it's a Geelong Grammar education and not a Ferntree Gully Tech one