BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

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  • bulldogtragic
    The List Manager
    • Jan 2007
    • 34316

    BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

    Please work with the assumptions, they're not mine, but I'll provide the sources. I will use picks not factoring in FA compo moving things negatively.

    Liveladders have us finishing at 14th with pick 5, (23 to Carlton from last year), 41, 59 & 61 (Freo deal with Crozier)

    The noise around Rhylee West is getting louder. ESPN today put him on power rankings (phantom draft esq) as pick 18. The first time Knightmare has put him into the top 18. Buku Khamis might be later around say 40. We've two other boys, but I will leave them out. So for argument sake, let's say we need picks 18 & 40 in draft points.

    So, we draft pick 5 in a super draft! - Elite kicking skills. If an irresponsible deal came in on Dahl that gets us pick 6, would we stock up on the future??

    But we draft out to pick 18. The premier nominates West. We match it. On last year's Draft Value Index (DVI) that needs us to deliver 985 points to the AFEL. Buku at pick 40 needs 429 points.

    So we would need to hand over 1,414 draft points to get both 'on the cheap'. With me?

    However, picks 41, 59 & 61 is only 705 draft points. Leaving us 709 draft points short (equivalent to pick 27).

    So, if the trade and draft was today, we need to trade. I can't see any club doing a draft points trade on our pick 41, and we'd be insane to trade down in a super draft, pick 5. So that means we might very well need to trade a player to generate the points (or if Dahl left as a free agent and the compo was lower at our second pick, that would cover the points), or perhaps looking at moving a few on to get two picks around 40 (picks 44 & 45 combined are worth 709 points). Campbell & Honey couldn't go for a peanut last year, so something of value might have to go, not guys like this (So maybe Roughy, Webb, Jong, Biggs, Roberts types etc). We could future trade, but with Olly Liberatore & Josh Kellett possible father sons, we aren't fixing the problem.

    In short, there's a lot to like about in pick 5, West & Khamis - namely/probably three athletic good ball users. But we are a long way off making it a reality. Now yes, it could be higher or lower than 709 points this thread points to, but how do we intend to come up with 709 points?
    Last edited by bulldogtragic; 06-05-2018, 07:39 PM.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023
  • comrade
    Hall of Fame
    • Jun 2008
    • 17941

    #2
    Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

    Can’t we go into a deficit in 2019?
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

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    • bulldogtragic
      The List Manager
      • Jan 2007
      • 34316

      #3
      Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

      Originally posted by comrade
      Can’t we go into a deficit in 2019?
      I think in theory we could, but there's I think Dimmatina & Darcy possible FS's and Unknown NGA candidates. To me it's like every government everywhere to run a deficit (no criticism personally comrade), and just when we get around to addressing it... It'll bulldog us in the arse as usual.

      The more I look at it, if we can get two picks in the middle third round like 44 & 45 or higher then we are covered. With player values dropping, that could be Webb & Roughy for instance. Unless some decent players demand out, and then this problem solved.
      Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

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      • boydogs
        WOOF Member
        • Apr 2009
        • 5842

        #4
        Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

        Originally posted by bulldogtragic
        how do we intend to come up with 709 points?
        A BT special trade
        If you kicked five goals and Tom Boyd kicked five goals, Tom Boyd kicked more goals than you.

        Formerly gogriff

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        • bulldogtragic
          The List Manager
          • Jan 2007
          • 34316

          #5
          Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

          Originally posted by boydogs
          You can go into deficit for the next year yeah?
          We could. We could swap picks, also. But from a long distance I've kept tabs on Kellett & Liberatore, and if their progression (plus any NGA kids) comes along, we may/will be smashed on points into 2019 and I don't think the rules allow for running multiple years of points deficit (I could be wrong, but I think it's a fail safe for dumb clubs).

          I've been looking at it harder:

          - We just need to make up picks 44 & 45. But in a good draft, we will have to offer some OK players. May move us into a rebuild if they're senior players for raw kids.
          - Dahl asks the club to allow him FA and AFEL second round compo covers it. Easy. Makes last year's trade harder for some to accept with Carlton.
          - We can find a player worth around pick 27 (which would need to be a very good player, owing to the draft). Not sure I see this as an option.
          - We go into 700+ points deficit in 2019 and if our FS kids are good and points or sponge worthy.... Sam Power will have to work something out.
          - A good player walks out (Gryphone) or is pushed out (Stringer). Would prefer not to have another trade period like that again.
          - A club offers us 709 points from an upgrade from pick 10 into our pick 5. We say no. Hopefully.
          Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

          Comment

          • Topdog
            Bulldog Team of the Century
            • Jan 2007
            • 7471

            #6
            Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

            Unfortunately I think it is far far too early to look into it properly. Even from our basic list management perspective we need to get rid of 3 players, if you assume that 1 of those is a trade for peanuts that probably nets us another 200 points.

            From my point of view we need to trade out at least 1 midfielder that is not a good ball user as we have too many.

            Comment

            • bulldogtragic
              The List Manager
              • Jan 2007
              • 34316

              #7
              Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

              Originally posted by Topdog
              Unfortunately I think it is far far too early to look into it properly. Even from our basic list management perspective we need to get rid of 3 players, if you assume that 1 of those is a trade for peanuts that probably nets us another 200 points.

              From my point of view we need to trade out at least 1 midfielder that is not a good ball user as we have too many.
              Agreed. Just getting setting the scene as it is today. We will probably move 5 on, but that's another thread. I couldn't agree more on the type who needs to go. After the media stories yesterday about Dahl, other clubs might be ringing Sam Power if we'd let him go depending on offers/compo chats that happen before the AFEL get involved.
              Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

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              • Dancin' Douggy
                WOOF Member
                • Oct 2007
                • 2877

                #8
                Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

                Yes..............as much as I love Dahlhaus, when you paint the picture like that it would be very very tempting to let him go. we need to correct our imbalance of midfielders with dodgy foot skills, it's literally losing us games at the moment. if we can engineer 2 decent picks in the superdraft. Turn them both into silky skilled and FAST mids. Whilst adding West and Khamis we will be making a major impact on our playing list. Will be impossible to do without seeing some talent leave the Kennel though. Who else could we bear to part with who might actually be worth something???

                Comment

                • 1eyedog
                  Hall of Fame
                  • Mar 2008
                  • 13205

                  #9
                  Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

                  Young. He has shown enough to raise the interest of a number of clubs. If Naughton and Cordy progress and Trengrove and Adam's get fit and can play 3-4 years he is one player we might be able to lose.
                  But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.

                  Comment

                  • GVGjr
                    Moderator
                    • Nov 2006
                    • 44394

                    #10
                    Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

                    Originally posted by bulldogtragic
                    Agreed. Just getting setting the scene as it is today. We will probably move 5 on, but that's another thread. I couldn't agree more on the type who needs to go. After the media stories yesterday about Dahl, other clubs might be ringing Sam Power if we'd let him go depending on offers/compo chats that happen before the AFEL get involved.
                    It all comes down to attitude with trading or letting players go even allowing them to slide into FA territory.
                    If the players heart isn't in then we should help facilitate a trade or even take our chance with Free Agency. We know at near his best Dahlhaus is an excellent player. We also have him as the face of our Dahlhaus Clubhouse so that' s massive ticks in the positive column however, he was a poor performer last year and in my opinion he was clearly distracted and he didn't commit his best effort. My fear is with a lucrative contract in front of him are we going to see him back at his best or a slightly different version of 2017?

                    We won't get a lot for him in compensation because he isn't currently in the right pay band at the club so we don't have a strong hand.

                    I'm not as trusting as I previously was with some of our players and Dahlhaus is in that group. If we are confident he is back on board then great, we should do our best but if we aren't 100% sure lets give it a few more weeks to gauge where he is at.

                    My heart is saying lets give him a good offer but I'd love to know how if he is really focused.
                    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

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                    • Mofra
                      Hall of Fame
                      • Dec 2006
                      • 14879

                      #11
                      Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

                      How often to teams get a decent player for a FA compo pick?
                      We got Webb for Higgins. That's our only FA deal IIRC.
                      Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

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                      • bulldogtragic
                        The List Manager
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 34316

                        #12
                        Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

                        Originally posted by Mofra
                        How often to teams get a decent player for a FA compo pick?
                        We got Webb for Higgins. That's our only FA deal IIRC.
                        Melbourne got Petracca & Bradshaw with pick 2 and the compo pick 3 (from James Frawley, believed be 4 X $550,000). St Kilda used pick 13 compo in a trade for Tom Hickey and pick swaps.

                        Depends on the deal, and fine points. Motlop type offer (4 X "about" $500,000, would hopefully land us pick 19 in a super draft (end of first round compo). If there were a lot of teams pushing offers up to Goddard/Frawley levels (Goddard 5 X 700,000 or so), another top 10 pick this year.

                        If offers on Dahl go passed Motlop & Frawley and the finer contract/list issues covered, then say we finish with pick 5. Dahl's compo is pick 6. Slightly less pick 19. Slightly less 24.
                        Last edited by bulldogtragic; 08-05-2018, 10:20 PM.
                        Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

                        Comment

                        • Twodogs
                          Moderator
                          • Nov 2006
                          • 27654

                          #13
                          Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

                          Originally posted by Mofra
                          How often to teams get a decent player for a FA compo pick?
                          We got Webb for Higgins. That's our only FA deal IIRC.
                          What was the Cal Ward compo pick classed as? "Sort of" FA I guess? For all intents and purposes it added up to the same thing except we got to choose when we spent it, like a Kmart voucher.

                          We landed a couple of fair players for it and our original pick when we did redeem it.
                          They say Burt Lancaster has one, but I don't believe them.

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                          • LostDoggy
                            WOOF Member
                            • Jan 2007
                            • 8307

                            #14
                            Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

                            Originally posted by Twodogs
                            What was the Cal Ward compo pick classed as? "Sort of" FA I guess? For all intents and purposes it added up to the same thing except we got to choose when we spent it, like a Kmart voucher.

                            We landed a couple of fair players for it and our original pick when we did redeem it.
                            The GWS deal was slightly different to free agency. The main picks from it were Melbourne,who selected Toumpas at 4 (for Scully) and a 2nd lower pick they traded, and us - we selected Macrae at 6 (for Ward).

                            As a sidenote, we got the Ward pick as a direct trade for Jordan MacMahon. What an amazing trade that ended up being, he retired in 2010, since then we've got 8 extra quality years of Ward then Macrae and heaps more to come.

                            We also got pick 50 for Sam Reid, from which we selected Jake Prudden.

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                            • Axe Man
                              Hall of Fame
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 11052

                              #15
                              Re: BT's very, very, very early 2018 post season / list management assessment

                              Originally posted by GVGjr
                              We won't get a lot for him in compensation because he isn't currently in the right pay band at the club so we don't have a strong hand.
                              Dahl's current contract is irrelevant to compensation. Compensation is determined by age and new contract dollars. Contract length is also not important.

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