LOL Aints

[Sedat]

Re: LOL Aints

I don't doubt that he is an excellent coach but he shat all over them years ago using a loophole to move to Fremantle even bypassing his own management and now the Saints have rolled out the red carpet for him and in the process shat on Brett Ratten by short changing him on his payout.

I just heard that Robery Harvey is returning as the senior assistant. At least the Saints are getting their ducks in a row.

Saints look like they are following the Geelong template and bringing St Kilda people back together, a process that ironcially started with Grant Thomas (after the Blighty debacle). Probably a good strategy for them to be able to sell it to the members, and more easily sold with an obviously sharp-minded experienced coach with a histiory of getting this club close to the summit and who clearly knows what he is doing in the box. The younger untried coach didn't work (Watters), the long CV experienced assistant coach didn't work (Richardson), the 2nd time senior coach didn't work (Ratten). Even with the nature of his exit last time, they honestly don't have much to lose.

[jeemak]

Re: LOL Aints

This article from James Rosewarne via Footyology doesn't miss:

https://footyology.com.au/delusional-st-kilda-and-ross-lyon-deserve-each-other/

Ross Lyon and the St Kilda ‘brains trust’ are eerily perfect for one another.

Both are delusional, Group 1 bullshit artists who’ve each fallen so far behind in the race they actually think they’re winning.

The article had me at that!

[jazzadogs]

Re: LOL Aints

St Kilda stuffing up this whole process, and Ross Lyon being a good coach for their club, are not mutually exclusive.

They should have just stuck with Ratten imo. But once they booted him, Lyon was the correct choice.

Does Lindsay Fox like him though, that's the important question ...

[Sedat]

Re: LOL Aints

This article from James Rosewarne via Footyology doesn't miss:

https://footyology.com.au/delusional-st-kilda-and-ross-lyon-deserve-each-other/

Ross Lyon and the St Kilda ‘brains trust’ are eerily perfect for one another.

Both are delusional, Group 1 bullshit artists who’ve each fallen so far behind in the race they actually think they’re winning.

The article had me at that!

Not sure who the hell this James Rosewarne is but he sounds like he's done one too many pre-seasons with RoCo, one of the most bitter, unhinged and unhappy people on social media.

He's welcome to his hot take but I couldn't disagree more with almost every aspect of it. Getting St Kilda and Freo to combined 4 GF's is no mean feat, considering they have won a combined 1 premiership in 154 completed seasons. These clear facts don't appear to support the narrative being framed (a bit of a common problem with modern journalism).

The Ratten sacking was appallingly handled (actually the re-appointment was the killer blow) but Lyon is clearly and obviously a better coach. He's not there to win a popularity contest, he's there to coach the lights out. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm dirty the Saints have him as they are now a better chance to become successful than they would have been under Ratts.

[Grantysghost]

Re: LOL Aints

This article from James Rosewarne via Footyology doesn't miss:

https://footyology.com.au/delusional-st-kilda-and-ross-lyon-deserve-each-other/

Ross Lyon and the St Kilda ‘brains trust’ are eerily perfect for one another.

Both are delusional, Group 1 bullshit artists who’ve each fallen so far behind in the race they actually think they’re winning.

The article had me at that!

This is my argument to a tee.

"When round one kicks off next season, Lyon won’t have coached an AFL team in three-and-a-half years, and in the last four seasons of trying to do that compiling a 29-58 record prior to being sacked. Those last four seasons as Fremantle coach resulted in offences that ranked 16th, 17th, 16th and 16th."

People get carried away with Lyon's record at the Saints but he had an incredible list to work with.
His best work was probably Freo early doors, but it all went south and I think his style and dour personality won't wash with the current generation.

Train wreck!

[hujsh]

Re: LOL Aints

That's probably the two biggest question marks on Lyon there isn't it. Can he build a list and is he still up to date with the latest coaching trends?

Also his record at Freo at the end being not great. Could we be seeing a Malthouse at Carlton type situation?

[Grantysghost]

Re: LOL Aints

Not sure who the hell this James Rosewarne is but he sounds like he's done one too many pre-seasons with RoCo, one of the most bitter, unhinged and unhappy people on social media.

He's welcome to his hot take but I couldn't disagree more with almost every aspect of it. Getting St Kilda and Freo to combined 4 GF's is no mean feat, considering they have won a combined 1 premiership in 154 completed seasons. These clear facts don't appear to support the narrative being framed (a bit of a common problem with modern journalism).

The Ratten sacking was appallingly handled (actually the re-appointment was the killer blow) but Lyon is clearly and obviously a better coach. He's not there to win a popularity contest, he's there to coach the lights out. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm dirty the Saints have him as they are now a better chance to become successful than they would have been under Ratts.

Wasn't it 3 x GFs?

[jazzadogs]

Re: LOL Aints

Wasn't it 3 x GFs?

3 years, 4 grand finals. 2009, 2010 x2, 2013.

[jeemak]

Re: LOL Aints

Not sure who the hell this James Rosewarne is but he sounds like he's done one too many pre-seasons with RoCo, one of the most bitter, unhinged and unhappy people on social media.

He's welcome to his hot take but I couldn't disagree more with almost every aspect of it. Getting St Kilda and Freo to combined 4 GF's is no mean feat, considering they have won a combined 1 premiership in 154 completed seasons. These clear facts don't appear to support the narrative being framed (a bit of a common problem with modern journalism).

The Ratten sacking was appallingly handled (actually the re-appointment was the killer blow) but Lyon is clearly and obviously a better coach. He's not there to win a popularity contest, he's there to coach the lights out. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm dirty the Saints have him as they are now a better chance to become successful than they would have been under Ratts.

Even the bits where he uses statistical evidence to back up his points? Or do you disagree that they didn't engage upon a governed process to secure his services?

Or is it the bit where he gives Lyon credit for making grand finals with both clubs, as he does here:

To Lyon’s credit, he was able to inject his trademark discipline and defensive structures into both outfits, taking both to grand finals. His work, particularly defensively, was undeniably immense even if neither team did get the chocolates, and even if both stints ended on sour notes.

I think the article is a little more balanced than you give it credit. I do agree with you that Lyon can clearly coach, but scoring hasn't been any of his team's stronger suits and it remains to be seen whether his style translates to the modern game.

As for Roco, he lets his frustrations come out on social media too much but to be fair social media is full of dickheads. To call him one of the most unhinged and bitter people on social media is an exaggeration, but I get you don't like him and hyperbole does make for good reading!

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: LOL Aints

3 years, 4 grand finals. 2009, 2010 x2, 2013.

Can't really call it 4 grand finals though. He got clubs to the last dance in 3 seasons. Unless we're saying Collingwood won 1 out of 2 grand finals in 2010.

[Grantysghost]

Re: LOL Aints

3 years, 4 grand finals. 2009, 2010 x2, 2013.

Ah right. Personally I count that as 3. Making a GF is a whole season affair.

[GVGjr]

Re: LOL Aints

That's probably the two biggest question marks on Lyon there isn't it. Can he build a list and is he still up to date with the latest coaching trends?

Also his record at Freo at the end being not great. Could we be seeing a Malthouse at Carlton type situation?

His history would say building a list might be his biggest challenge this time around. I would imagine the Saints will have something in place that has some selection integrity around developing younger players.
He has a bit to work with at the Saints but nothing like what he had previously at the Saints or Fremantle.

[macca]

Re: LOL Aints

3 years, 4 grand finals. 2009, 2010 x2, 2013.

Thats a pretty good achievement is it technically 3 GF + a draw ?

Yes, St Kilda and Freo probably had enough talent on that list to get there. Freo could have buried that GF if they had kicked straight in the first half.

Sounds like Lyon has a license to be ruthless and throw down the challenge to all the players at St Kilda to get the most out of themselves and start achieving something instead of being mediocre and being remembered for being that during their careers. Lets see how far it WARMS with some of these new age types. I expect a number of delistings and players being moved on next year. Love the melo drama that could unfold at St Kilda.

I wonder if Lyon could be good comparison to Malthouse in 2002-03. Malthouse did an outstanding effort to get Collingwood to 2 GF :
2002 - loss by 9 points to the Lions
2003 - GF again , loss to Lions by a fare margin.

My assessment was that he was an outstanding couch to get an average team with talent that was evenly distributed on across the list. He just had a lot of buy in from all the players and found a way to connect with them. I cannot recall that 2002-2003 Collingwood team having any outstanding players other than Buckley , but he did have a few characters in Swan and Didak at the time. The Rocca brothers were learning to use their big bodies, being taught by JArrod Malohy. they had a blue collar mid field in : O'Bree, Lockyer, Licuria and Swan. But had a good backline which were stingy. Prestigiacomo name comes to mind as one player that seemed to get recognize for his 4 posession games .

[mjp]

Re: LOL Aints

Where does inspiring the team come into it? I would hope the coach rates 8/10 or 9/10 on both of the areas you have mentioned.

I bet they don't.

I triple bet.

If you are trying to tell me that an experienced AFL senior coach is going to be an ace at pulling apart and rebuilding kicking technique, well, I've got news for you. They just don't do it...

If you are equally trying to tell me that they are in the weeds of teaching stoppage structure/building young players up so they are ready to contribute, well...they don't really do that either.

Most of them will have a solid grounding in ONE (skills - Dev coach pathway) or the other (structures - Assistant coach pathway) BUT they wouldn't have been doing much of it. That's why getting in good assistants who WANT to be assistants is so valuable - you get a resource who is ready to rock and is 'the man/woman with a plan'...talk about Collingwood getting Leppitsch this year as an example. I would say us getting Webb is a similar example but I'm not sure many would agree with me...

Inspiring a team? Meh, whatever. Building unity etc I'm with you but inspiration comes from within...yeah, the coach can prod or poke here or there but it is the players who decide (as a group) what is acceptable and what isn't.

[jeemak]

Re: LOL Aints

I bet they don't.

I triple bet.

If you are trying to tell me that an experienced AFL senior coach is going to be an ace at pulling apart and rebuilding kicking technique, well, I've got news for you. They just don't do it...

If you are equally trying to tell me that they are in the weeds of teaching stoppage structure/building young players up so they are ready to contribute, well...they don't really do that either.

Most of them will have a solid grounding in ONE (skills - Dev coach pathway) or the other (structures - Assistant coach pathway) BUT they wouldn't have been doing much of it. That's why getting in good assistants who WANT to be assistants is so valuable - you get a resource who is ready to rock and is 'the man/woman with a plan'...talk about Collingwood getting Leppitsch this year as an example. I would say us getting Webb is a similar example but I'm not sure many would agree with me...

Inspiring a team? Meh, whatever. Building unity etc I'm with you but inspiration comes from within...yeah, the coach can prod or poke here or there but it is the players who decide (as a group) what is acceptable and what isn't.

This is a point you hear players of both successful and unsuccessful teams each year talk about. Player driven standards are super important and it's an area that I don't think we've been great in this past year.