LOL Aints

[Sedat]

Re: LOL Aints

Even the bits where he uses statistical evidence to back up his points? Or do you disagree that they didn't engage upon a governed process to secure his services?

Or is it the bit where he gives Lyon credit for making grand finals with both clubs, as he does here:

To Lyon’s credit, he was able to inject his trademark discipline and defensive structures into both outfits, taking both to grand finals. His work, particularly defensively, was undeniably immense even if neither team did get the chocolates, and even if both stints ended on sour notes.

I think the article is a little more balanced than you give it credit. I do agree with you that Lyon can clearly coach, but scoring hasn't been any of his team's stronger suits and it remains to be seen whether his style translates to the modern game.

As for Roco, he lets his frustrations come out on social media too much but to be fair social media is full of dickheads. To call him one of the most unhinged and bitter people on social media is an exaggeration, but I get you don't like him and hyperbole does make for good reading!

The bulk of the article is condescending, arrogantly written and mostly based on the personal feelings of the author against Lyon and the Saints directors. Fair enough, the directors have made a hash of the Ratten re-signing and sacking, but the decision to appoint Lyon is a bold approach - it doesn't guarantee success but it makes St Kilda a more dangerous opponent. There are small elements in the article grudgingly giving credit and stating the obvious about Lyon's record and obvious successes in the past.

RoCo is a hot mess. It's actually very sad to see a once excellent footy journalist lash out with vitriol and render himself unemployable in the industry due to his complete lack of tolerance and acceptance to even slightly differing opinions from his own personal viewpoint, and his acid tongue in dealing with people who dare challenge him. You're 100% right, there are many hideous anonymous people in the cesspit of social media, but someone with his profile should rise above that garbage instead of contributing more garbage to the discussion.

For mine, the article represents everything wrong with modern journalism - framing a preferred narrative based primarily on emotions over facts.

[Bornadog]

Re: LOL Aints

Lyon has Lenny Hayes and Robert Harvey as assistants

[GVGjr]

Re: LOL Aints

Walsh, Lyon, Hayes, Robert Harvey and I think Goddard are more than handy ins for the Saints footy department and I hear Silvagni might be in the mix to join them as well.

Say what you like about them but they're going full bore to fix things.

[jeemak]

Re: LOL Aints

The bulk of the article is condescending, arrogantly written and mostly based on the personal feelings of the author against Lyon and the Saints directors. Fair enough, the directors have made a hash of the Ratren resigning and sacking, but the decision to appoint Lyon is a bold approach - it doesn't guarantee success but it makes St Kilda a more dangerous opponent. There are small elements in the article grudgingly giving credit and stating the obvious about Lyon's record and obvious successes in the past.

RoCo is a hot mess. It's actually very sad to see a once excellent footy journalist lash out with vitriol and render himself unemployable in the industry due to his complete lack of tolerance and acceptance to even slightly differing opinions from his own personal viewpoint, and his acid tongue in dealing with people who dare challenge him. You're 100% right, there are many hideous anonymous people in the cesspit of social media, but someone with his profile should rise above that garbage instead of contributing more garbage to the discussion.

For mine, the article represents everything wrong with modern journalism - framing a preferred narrative based primarily on emotions over facts.

I understand what you're saying, but it is an opinion piece.

The issue with not engaging a process is it smacks of an unprofessional organisation wanting to take on an easy enough fix to get their man. The article rightly points out that Lyon has turned down more jobs than he's actually been offered, or even spoken to formally about because he fears being exposed via a process, or feels too important to go through one. To me that's genuine alarm bells stuff, and irrespective if they're a bit more dangerous today than they were yesterday, it's hardly a meritorious and well governed cornerstone from which an organisation can launch a new era.

How will Lyon react under scrutiny if things don't go well, and what we as Doggies supporters continually call for our coach to be exposed to (even though he's actually won a flag) from a review perspective is called to investigate why? I know how he'll react, it won't be pretty and anyone can see that upfront.

So while the article comes across as condescending, it absolutely hits the mark outlining how much of a shit show the process to secure Lyon has been. Adding to that, Lyon's successes as a coach are between nine and thirteen years old. It boggles the mind someone like that had no competition for the role. It's ridiculous and bordering on insane that Lyon was hunted down and mollycoddled outside of the most rudimentary of processes by a bunch of those people you continually deride - and that's the key message of the article.

On Roco I actually agree with a lot of what you say. He needs to come out of the fox hole and end the siege. He's not Steven Seagal, Gary Busy isn't dancing around in drag, he needs to lighten up.

[Sedat]

Re: LOL Aints

I understand what you're saying, but it is an opinion piece.

The issue with not engaging a process is it smacks of an unprofessional organisation wanting to take on an easy enough fix to get their man. The article rightly points out that Lyon has turned down more jobs than he's actually been offered, or even spoken to formally about because he fears being exposed via a process, or feels too important to go through one. To me that's genuine alarm bells stuff, and irrespective if they're a bit more dangerous today than they were yesterday, it's hardly a meritorious and well governed cornerstone from which an organisation can launch a new era.

How will Lyon react under scrutiny if things don't go well, and what we as Doggies supporters continually call for our coach to be exposed to (even though he's actually won a flag) from a review perspective is called to investigate why? I know how he'll react, it won't be pretty and anyone can see that upfront.

So while the article comes across as condescending, it absolutely hits the mark outlining how much of a shit show the process to secure Lyon has been. Adding to that, Lyon's successes as a coach are between nine and thirteen years old. It boggles the mind someone like that had no competition for the role. It's ridiculous and bordering on insane that Lyon was hunted down and mollycoddled outside of the most rudimentary of processes by a bunch of those people you continually deride - and that's the key message of the article.

On Roco I actually agree with a lot of what you say. He needs to come out of the fox hole and end the siege. He's not Steven Seagal, Gary Busy isn't dancing around in drag, he needs to lighten up.

When we appointed Rocket, Smorgon and the board basically held him under siege in an interview room for hours on end until he finally accepted the role - there was no process whatsoever, and Rocket was nohing less than a resounding success for us even if we didn't quite scale the summit. When Damien Hardwick was vying for the Essendon coaching role through an arduous process at the time (with Matthew Knights as the other contender), his less than perfect PowerPoint presentation skills ultimately worked against him (as an aside, that faulty laptop is a true hero and a national treasure).

Sometimes a full-scale process gets the right coach and sometimes gut feel and instinct works just as well. This approach might blow up in their face but the full scale processes got them Watters, Richardson and Ratten. Conversely, the gut feel approach got them Grant Thomas (who was relentlessly bagged but he got the club back on track) and also Ross Lyon initially (he came from a mile back in the pecking order purely on the strength of Robert Walls recommendation). They are surrounding Lyon and going all-in on the cultural fabric "St Kilda" people. It's bold, no doubt about it. Time will tell if it is a success or a failure. If re-signing Ratten in haste was a mistake 3 months ago (it was), perhaps the club are making a brutal but brave call to not make the mistake of keeping him if their internal review has determined he is not the right man for the job. It would have been much easier treading water for another 12 months with Ratten.

[jeemak]

Re: LOL Aints

When we appointed Rocket, Smorgon and the board basically held him under siege in an interview room for hours on end until he finally accepted the role - there was no process whatsoever, and Rocket was nohing less than a resounding success for us even if we didn't quite scale the summit. When Damien Hardwick was vying for the Essendon coaching role through an arduous process at the time (with Matthew Knights as the other contender), his less than perfect PowerPoint presentation skills ultimately worked against him (as an aside, that faulty laptop is a true hero and a national treasure).

Sometimes a full-scale process gets the right coach and sometimes gut feel and instinct works just as well. This approach might blow up in their face but the full scale processes got them Watters, Richardson and Ratten. Conversely, the gut feel approach got them Grant Thomas (who was relentlessly bagged but he got the club back on track) and also Ross Lyon initially (he came from a mile back in the pecking order purely on the strength of Robert Walls recommendation). They are surrounding Lyon and going all-in on the cultural fabric "St Kilda" people. It's bold, no doubt about it. Time will tell if it is a success or a failure. If re-signing Ratten in haste was a mistake 3 months ago (it was), perhaps the club are making a brutal but brave call to not make the mistake of keeping him if their internal review has determined he is not the right man for the job. It would have been much easier treading water for another 12 months with Ratten.

Fair points, can live with all of them on their merits.

I guess I was arguing that incredulousness in response to what's transpired, even vitriol as portrayed in the article isn't unreasonable. Particularly given you've got a bunch of guys running the club who have saved themselves from a review, sacked a coach whilst the club is in serious debt, and haven't even considered the rudimentary safety net of a basic process as necessary in landing a coach who had his success 9-13 years ago. What you've talked about with Rocket, Knights and Hardwick, or anyone else, happened over a decade ago. The world has changed, administrations need to be accountable to people who fork out their hard earned and those who work for them.

All of your selected examples of having a punt can't be argued with, nor can those examples of following process backfiring. But we talk about the folly of amateurism within the AFL all the time around here, and I just can't see this as anything other than a modern era example of that very thing.

It's bold, but that doesn't mean that it's not mind boggling that such a poorly run club could ride roughshod over so many key decisions. If Lethlean and Gill weren't mates from their Old Boys footy days - let alone their AFL HQ days - this whole saga would have been ripped to shreds from all comers, and possibly not even allowed to happen in the first place due to AFL HQ interventionism taking hold.

[Sedat]

Re: LOL Aints

Fair points, can live with all of them on their merits.

I guess I was arguing that incredulousness in response to what's transpired, even vitriol as portrayed in the article isn't unreasonable. Particularly given you've got a bunch of guys running the club who have saved themselves from a review, sacked a coach whilst the club is in serious debt, and haven't even considered the rudimentary safety net of a basic process as necessary in landing a coach who had his success 9-13 years ago. What you've talked about with Rocket, Knights and Hardwick, or anyone else, happened over a decade ago. The world has changed, administrations need to be accountable to people who fork out their hard earned and those who work for them.

All of your selected examples of having a punt can't be argued with, nor can those examples of following process backfiring. But we talk about the folly of amateurism within the AFL all the time around here, and I just can't see this as anything other than a modern era example of that very thing.

It's bold, but that doesn't mean that it's not mind boggling that such a poorly run club could ride roughshod over so many key decisions. If Lethlean and Gill weren't mates from their Old Boys footy days - let alone their AFL HQ days - this whole saga would have been ripped to shreds from all comers, and possibly not even allowed to happen in the first place due to AFL HQ interventionism taking hold.

We are on a unity ticket there with regard to the incompetent old boys club. Lethers is a buffoon who keeps managing to fail up, and he should have been sacked before any decision was made on Ratten, let alone promoted FFS. Some of his list/contract decisions when footy boss have been mind-bogglingly stupid (as an aside, how does their list manager Gallagher also keep his job?)

In my professional career, I've gone through riogorous processes and I've also been head-hunted - both scenarios resulted in positive outcomes. People are very often still head-hunted today - the long arduous proces is not necessarily the best and only way forward (no doubt it sometimes is). I see the Lyon appointment as the latter - he really doesn't need to prove his coaching credentials, and there is no doubt he is a better senior coach than Ratten. And unlike the Malthouse Carlton disaster, Lyon is dog-hungry for another chance - Malthouse was a Larry David-esque spite appointment just to raise the middle finger at Collingwood and ultimately overtake Jock McHale's record (coincidentally Ratts was the poor victim on both occasions). It's simply a question of Lyon fitting in to the future direction and the future culture that the organisation is trying to build.

[Bornadog]

Re: LOL Aints

We are on a unity ticket there with regard to the incompetent old boys club. Lethers is a buffoon who keeps managing to fail up, and he should have been sacked before any decision was made on Ratten

How he kept a job in any AFL capacity is beyond me following his antics in AFL HQ. For that matter, Lyon is in a similar position for the same thing. The Old Boys club lives.

[Sedat]

Re: LOL Aints

How he kept a job in any AFL capacity is beyond me following his antics in AFL HQ. For that matter, Lyon is in a similar position for the same thing. The Old Boys club lives.

I'm far less concerned about the private lives of consenting adults than general incompetence, and Lethers has never been a particularly gifted or savvy operator. Honestly Gill isn't much chop either, although he does have excellent hair and a great PR/stylist team.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: LOL Aints

I'm far less concerned about the private lives of consenting adults than general incompetence, and Lethers has never been a particularly gifted or savvy operator. Honestly Gill isn't much chop either, although he does have excellent hair and a great PR/stylist team.

It is an interesting perception and Gill has been well paid for what he has done and it appears that not many fans seem to consider he has been worthy.

However, I had some feedback from a Sydney friend who I rate as quite knowledgeable.
He is predominantly a Union fan, but considers the AFL way ahead of the other codes in relation to the running of the organisation.

Is Gill due some credit?

[Bornadog]

Re: LOL Aints

It is an interesting perception and Gill has been well paid for what he has done and it appears that not many fans seem to consider he has been worthy.

However, I had some feedback from a Sydney friend who I rate as quite knowledgeable.
He is predominantly a Union fan, but considers the AFL way ahead of the other codes in relation to the running of the organisation.

Is Gill due some credit?

Peter Gordon praised Gill during Covid and said under his leadership and the way he handled it was excellent.

[chef]

Re: LOL Aints

Walsh, Lyon, Hayes, Robert Harvey and I think Goddard are more than handy ins for the Saints footy department and I hear Silvagni might be in the mix to join them as well.

Say what you like about them but they're going full bore to fix things.

I think their supporters would be over the moon. Lyon is a very good coach and they've added some guys that genuinely love the club.

They've gotten a lot stronger.

[Bornadog]

Re: LOL Aints

I'm far less concerned about the private lives of consenting adults than general incompetence, and Lethers has never been a particularly gifted or savvy operator. Honestly Gill isn't much chop either, although he does have excellent hair and a great PR/stylist team.

That's fine, but it is inappropriate behavior especially between Boss and subordinate.

[GVGjr]

Re: LOL Aints

I think their supporters would be over the moon. Lyon is a very good coach and they've added some guys that genuinely love the club.

They've gotten a lot stronger.

60K membership base and they have brought in some strong footy department people in.
Their membership base has stuck with them and all this news would be music to their ears.
If they get their stuff together on the field they could be a sleeping giant.

[Sedat]

Re: LOL Aints

It is an interesting perception and Gill has been well paid for what he has done and it appears that not many fans seem to consider he has been worthy.

However, I had some feedback from a Sydney friend who I rate as quite knowledgeable.
He is predominantly a Union fan, but considers the AFL way ahead of the other codes in relation to the running of the organisation.

Is Gill due some credit?

Running the AFL is a "can't fail" prospect. There are billions of dollars flowing through from broadcast rights deals and there are many millions more in contra advertising/media exposure that has spawned an entire cottage industry that is 100% dedicated to covering the code. The grassroots is dreadfully neglected by City Hall, despite this enormous pool of broadcast revenue.

Gill did encounter some difficulty during the COVID years and navigated this with some skill, but again he followed the lead of Peter V'Landys who has always been more proactive with a frankly inferior and much less national product. Gill is definitely a better operator than Lethers.