ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

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  • 1eyedog
    Hall of Fame
    • Mar 2008
    • 13312

    Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

    Originally posted by Webby
    As Fonzie would say, "Exactamondo!"

    Honestly, if the Brunswick McDonald's breached a public health code to such a serious extent that the entire McDonald's business was under threat of serious, serious damage, do you really think a McDonald's Corporation funded tribunal would ever find them guilty?!

    WADA found Lance Armstrong (quite rightly) guilty on the balance of evidence. Think about the term "balance of evidence" for a moment. This is where the ambiguity comes into play. It's where a ajudicator's bias (conscious or unconscious) enters centre stage.

    The AFL "independent" Tribunal clearly dismissed evidence as inadmissible. They dismissed much of the body of evidence in making their verdict. There was testimony from individuals which was dismissed as "well... It's only one chick who testified to that point, so it's not really credible, is it?".... I'm afraid, WADA don't see it that way. Anyone remember the Lance Armstrong case and his ex-teammate's wife's testimony which was dismissed for over a decade?? WADA do NOT want a repeat of that scenario.

    Oh, and believe me, this is the equivalent of a tennis player winning a satellite tournament on grass and now stepping up to Roland Garros and the French Open. It's a huge step up in class and a completely different playing surface! And the umpires are no longer home-towners! WADA will NOT apply the same stringent "burden of proof" criteria as the AFL tribunal. WADA have a lot of power. The Australian Sports Commission will NOT want to put them off side. The ramifications will be huge. Our international reputation will be in tatters. Every Australian team that competes a road will be tainted and perhaps scrutinised as a result.

    This saga is now well and truly on their radar. In my opinion, the AFL pop-gun tribunal was cleverly run as a done deal prior to it even beginning. They cleverly and conveniently applied a very stringent set of criteria for admissible and inadmissible evidence. This is where Gerard Whately's brilliant grilling of James Hird on AFL 360 was directed. The question of guilt was never even considered.

    Point is, the CAS adjudicators will apply a far less narrow set of criteria on what is admissible than that which the AFL tribunal applied. In legal terms, it's become a Test match played on Indian pitches rather than Australian ones. And WADA have some very good spinners and some very open-minded umpires!!

    Game on!

    Essendon FC would be very, very worried!
    Great post Webby, cheers.
    But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.

    Comment

    • 1eyedog
      Hall of Fame
      • Mar 2008
      • 13312

      Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

      The key to all of this really is WADA's ability to subpoena Shane Charter and Nima Alavi whom ASADA tried to subpoena to face the AFL Tribunal last year, an agency not deemed 'a commercial arbitration' by the Supreme Court, consequently ASADA failed to force the issue.

      They are key witnesses really and Essendon know it. I won't be surprised to see the club implode prior to the release of WADA's finding.

      Interesting WADA have approached Richard Young to run the case, the same bloke that brought down Armstrong and Marion Jones. He had been providing external advice to ASADA during their investigation so he is across the case.
      But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.

      Comment

      • jeemak
        Bulldog Legend
        • Oct 2010
        • 22007

        Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

        All, cool your jets and go back 20 pages.

        We're rewriting the same things we wrote prior to the ASADA process coming together, and ultimately failing.

        From an evidence perspective I can't see how a lot has changed. Let's wait and see, though I think this will go down as an ultimately important and necessary process for the AFL and EFC to endure, it will be a fruitless one from a penal perspective.
        TF is this?.........Obviously you're not a golfer.

        Comment

        • Twodogs
          Moderator
          • Nov 2006
          • 27664

          Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

          Originally posted by jeemak
          All, cool your jets and go back 20 pages.

          We're rewriting the same things we wrote prior to the ASADA process coming together, and ultimately failing.

          From an evidence perspective I can't see how a lot has changed. Let's wait and see, though I think this will go down as an ultimately important and necessary process for the AFL and EFC to endure, it will be a fruitless one from a penal perspective.
          It all hinges on them getting Dank, Chatres and Alavi to give evidence. Other than that they only have what ASADA had and I doubt they held anything significant back in the fortnight they spent presenting evidence.
          They say Burt Lancaster has one, but I don't believe them.

          Comment

          • Dry Rot
            Bulldog Team of the Century
            • Jan 2007
            • 6469

            Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

            Originally posted by Twodogs
            It all hinges on them getting Dank, Chatres and Alavi to give evidence. Other than that they only have what ASADA had and I doubt they held anything significant back in the fortnight they spent presenting evidence.
            How does WADA and CAS get these guys to testify in Switzerland?
            The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.

            Comment

            • 1eyedog
              Hall of Fame
              • Mar 2008
              • 13312

              Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

              Originally posted by Twodogs
              It all hinges on them getting Dank, Chatres and Alavi to give evidence. Other than that they only have what ASADA had and I doubt they held anything significant back in the fortnight they spent presenting evidence.
              That's it, either that or the source location in China or an Essendon player / former Essendon player gives evidence. It's how they got Armstrong, there was scientific evidence available to USADA but ultimately it was his team mates that brought him undone.
              But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.

              Comment

              • 1eyedog
                Hall of Fame
                • Mar 2008
                • 13312

                Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

                Originally posted by Dry Rot
                How does WADA and CAS get these guys to testify in Switzerland?
                I think they have to use the bias territory argument and that it is critical they are able to run an independent investigation in neutral territory. Lawyers representing EFC / witnesses will argue that due to logistical constraints the matter should be heard in Sydney. I can see this being one battle of the war.

                WADA have not given one sniff of info to AFL since they decided to appeal and you can be sure they don't give a stuff about them crying about it being conducted in Switzerland.
                But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.

                Comment

                • Dry Rot
                  Bulldog Team of the Century
                  • Jan 2007
                  • 6469

                  Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

                  IIRC Charters and Alvi gave interviews and statements to ASADA, but then refused to be called. Consequently, this evidence was IIRC given little weight by the dodgy AFL tribunal.

                  Transcripts still exist and the weight in the new tribunal may be different.
                  The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.

                  Comment

                  • Dry Rot
                    Bulldog Team of the Century
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 6469

                    Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

                    On a related note, there's plenty of enthusiasm on BF to get Carlisle.

                    Now that WADA has appealed and given the articles cited above, this seems likes dodgy move for us to trade for a gun player who is unlikely to play for 2 years.

                    Thoughts?
                    The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.

                    Comment

                    • 1eyedog
                      Hall of Fame
                      • Mar 2008
                      • 13312

                      Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

                      Originally posted by Dry Rot
                      On a related note, there's plenty of enthusiasm on BF to get Carlisle.

                      Now that WADA has appealed and given the articles cited above, this seems likes dodgy move for us to trade for a gun player who is unlikely to play for 2 years.

                      Thoughts?
                      I wouldn't touch any Essendon player with a 10 foot pole. Way too much risk.
                      But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.

                      Comment

                      • Dry Rot
                        Bulldog Team of the Century
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 6469

                        Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

                        Originally posted by 1eyedog
                        I wouldn't touch any Essendon player with a 10 foot pole. Way too much risk.
                        Agreed.
                        The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.

                        Comment

                        • Webby
                          WOOF Member
                          • Jul 2012
                          • 1880

                          Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

                          It's not necessarily crucial for Dank and Charters to testify. The was a significant amount of circumstantial evidence and witness testimony which was considered (conveniently, imo) inadmissible by the AFL Tribunal. This will not be the case with the next non-AFL tribunal.

                          So the point is, same (or at least very similar) body of evidence, but a very, very different interpretation of what is admissible and inadmissible. This is the key point.

                          Comment

                          • Jeanette54
                            Senior Player
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 1298

                            Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

                            Forgotten in this is Jobe Watson's admission on TV that he had been given a drug on the WADA banned list, 9084 I think it was. Somehow that got swept under the carpet during the AFL/ASADA hearing.

                            It may not be this time.

                            The new investigation may well not be kind to either the AFL, EFC or the Gillard government controlled (at the time) ASADA.
                            The truth will set you free,
                            but first it will piss you off. ... Gloria Steinem.

                            Comment

                            • Twodogs
                              Moderator
                              • Nov 2006
                              • 27664

                              Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

                              Originally posted by Dry Rot
                              How does WADA and CAS get these guys to testify in Switzerland?
                              WADA would have to appeal to the Victorian Supreme Court where the original ruling against ASADA/AFL was made I would think.

                              Originally posted by Dry Rot
                              IIRC Charters and Alvi gave interviews and statements to ASADA, but then refused to be called. Consequently, this evidence was IIRC given little weight by the dodgy AFL tribunal.

                              Transcripts still exist and the weight in the new tribunal may be different.
                              No affidavits exist. None of the three have ever made statements or sworn affidavits unfortunately. The only evidence against them is circumstantial.
                              They say Burt Lancaster has one, but I don't believe them.

                              Comment

                              • Maddog37
                                WOOF Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 3132

                                Re: ASADA issues show-cause notices to Essendon players

                                Originally posted by jeemak
                                All, cool your jets and go back 20 pages.

                                We're rewriting the same things we wrote prior to the ASADA process coming together, and ultimately failing.

                                From an evidence perspective I can't see how a lot has changed. Let's wait and see, though I think this will go down as an ultimately important and necessary process for the AFL and EFC to endure, it will be a fruitless one from a penal perspective.
                                I think you need to reread the post from Webby on the previous page Jeemak

                                Comment

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