Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

[Missing Dog]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I read Sedat's post on another thread about the big group of players we have who can perhaps be okish at times at AFL level but overall will never really amount to much at all.

Why should we hold onto these guys? I don't see how they will help develop our kids.

Vez, Sherman (not sure of contract status), Markovic and DJ are just taking up space IMO.

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles are gone. I was actually reasonably impressed by Gilbee but not sure he is the type who will help develop kids.

Then there are the young talls in Skinner, Panos and Hill. I know Skinner's coming from way back but he isn't 19, he is 23. I think absolutely best case, he will end up offering us Setanta type value. Really believe Panos is a throwback and Hill can't get near it at Willi.

I know that's 11 players but we would also updgrade 2 rookies and I rate Johannisen more than any of the 11 long term. I would rather take a punt on a draftee than resign myself to keeping a player we know won't make it just because he has played a decent game or two. We are the AFL's version of hoarders.

It's hard to argue with most of that. I think a couple of players are needed for depth purposes however and perhaps one or two we could rookie.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

My god, I just glad the club has appointed professional people to mangage the list because some of the suggestions on this thread are simply ridiculous.

[GVGjr]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

My god, I just glad the club has appointed professional people to mangage the list because some of the suggestions on this thread are simply ridiculous.

What would be your recommendations?

[Desipura]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

My god, I just glad the club has appointed professional people to mangage the list because some of the suggestions on this thread are simply ridiculous.

Gee, you are touchy today arent you?

[Mantis]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I read Sedat's post on another thread about the big group of players we have who can perhaps be okish at times at AFL level but overall will never really amount to much at all.

Why should we hold onto these guys? I don't see how they will help develop our kids.

Vez, Sherman (not sure of contract status), Markovic and DJ are just taking up space IMO.

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles are gone. I was actually reasonably impressed by Gilbee but not sure he is the type who will help develop kids.

Then there are the young talls in Skinner, Panos and Hill. I know Skinner's coming from way back but he isn't 19, he is 23. I think absolutely best case, he will end up offering us Setanta type value. Really believe Panos is a throwback and Hill can't get near it at Willi.

I know that's 11 players but we would also updgrade 2 rookies and I rate Johannisen more than any of the 11 long term. I would rather take a punt on a draftee than resign myself to keeping a player we know won't make it just because he has played a decent game or two. We are the AFL's version of hoarders.

That all sounds all good and we do need to trim the fat, but how much faith do you have that we can make sound choices at the draft/ trade table to ensure we head in the right direction?

Going on past performances I'm not that confident.

[BulldogBelle]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

Rocco, I think your suggestions to cut that far into the list are a tad over zealous. Let me explain how I see it.

By the end of 2014, we will no longer have the services of Gia, Cross, Hargreave, Morris, Gilbee, Murphy, Lake, Boyd, Cooney.... That's 9 players all of 200 gamer/club champion type stock. Being able to replace these guys 'like for like' will be an enormous challenge in and of itself.

To avoid having a first 22 running out every week in 2014-15 of sub 23/24 yr olds with less than 50 games experience you simply must hold onto players like Sherman, Vez, DJ, Marko, Austin and a case could even be made for Moles (undecided on him still).

Your suggestion to carve out so-called 'list cloggers' in addition to the inevitable ageing club champion brigade would see us in 2014/15 doing our best impersonation of the Gold Coast Suns circa 2011/12.

[Bornadog]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

Your suggestion to carve out so-called 'list cloggers' in addition to the inevitable ageing club champion brigade would see us in 2014/15 doing our best impersonation of the Gold Coast Suns circa 2011/12.

I don't agree with that. Here is a list of current players and those that are potentially not going to be around in 2013. I have included their age as at 31 December of each year.



We have several bands of players, shaded accordingly. You can see there are 8 players who will be 30 plus in 2013, this is far too many for any club.

Of those I have highlighted in yellow, tell me which ones you believe we should keep?

There are doubts on Gia, Cooney and will depend on their bodies, Panos is still young and there is an argument to keep him. Skinner is also on the doubtful list but I haven't highlighted him.

In 2014, we will still have at least 10 players over 26 years old, but we will be better balanced if we can reduce a number of the so called list cloggers and replace them with some young drfatees and maybe a gun 25 year old (if we can get one). There is also doubts in 2014 for those not highlighted in yellow and over 30.

Note:, I haven't made comments on rookies as they are the ones that will potentially take some spots.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I read Sedat's post on another thread about the big group of players we have who can perhaps be okish at times at AFL level but overall will never really amount to much at all.

Why should we hold onto these guys? I don't see how they will help develop our kids.

Vez, Sherman (not sure of contract status), Markovic and DJ are just taking up space IMO.

Hooper, Mulligan and Moles are gone. I was actually reasonably impressed by Gilbee but not sure he is the type who will help develop kids.

Then there are the young talls in Skinner, Panos and Hill. I know Skinner's coming from way back but he isn't 19, he is 23. I think absolutely best case, he will end up offering us Setanta type value. Really believe Panos is a throwback and Hill can't get near it at Willi.

I know that's 11 players but we would also updgrade 2 rookies and I rate Johannisen more than any of the 11 long term. I would rather take a punt on a draftee than resign myself to keeping a player we know won't make it just because he has played a decent game or two. We are the AFL's version of hoarders.

nice summary - if it does pan out that Vez, Sherman, Markovic and DJ are taking up space then this a massive indictment on our current recruiters and Fantasia. We actively targetted these guys to fill a void (mid 20's bracket) and to draw a blank on all is unacceptable. Having said that I still have mild hopes for a couple of that lot, but time will tell.

In any case, do we need to have another review of football operations (with role of senior coach being excluded from the terms of reference) to either recommend changes or confirm we are travelling down the right path? As Melbourne woes are teaching us all, this is the most important phase of list development (bottom or nearing bottom). Are the guys in there capable enough and perhaps more importantly have sufficient resources for us to compete?

[azabob]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

nice summary - if it does pan out that Vez, Sherman, Markovic and DJ are taking up space then this a massive indictment on our current recruiters and Fantasia. We actively targetted these guys to fill a void (mid 20's bracket) and to draw a blank on all is unacceptable. Having said that I still have mild hopes for a couple of that lot, but time will tell.

I really think our recruiting team is coping a lot of unfair criticism. Out of those players you listed he only pulled the trigger on Markovic (who finished top 10 in our B&F last year) and is rated by the match committee (rightly or wrongly)

Dalrymple has only had three drafts. Two of those drafts were heavily compromised due to the expansion teams, however we were fortunate with father son picks in one of those compromised drafts, and if you believe what you read and hear around the traps he was heavily influenced into taking Clay Smith.

[stefoid]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I am assuming we plan to elevate Cambell, Johanisson and Austin to the main list, and draft 5 kids, so we need to cut 8 players. We also want to keep the rookie list open for fresh blood, so we keep those 3 vacated spots clear for the rookie draft.

Mulligan, Hooper, DJ and Moles have been given ample opportunity - there isnt any point to them clogging up positions at Williamstown any more.

Panos seems like he has been around for ever, but is only 21. Yet we also have Redpath who plays an identical role and is younger, bigger, quicker and has the advantage of only being on the rookie list. So I have to cut Panos.

Sherman... keep for next year. This year we are playing some kind of turtle-like defense at all costs game plan. I would like to see what Sherman can do next year when we (hopefully) open the game up a bit which is Shermans forte, if he has one.

Skinner - heart says yes, head says no. Split the difference, cut him, and re-rookie only if no better rookies are available at our last rookie pick.

Hargrave: I like his experience and versatility for depth in case we make the finals next year. Keep.

Gilbee - geez. This is a professional club, right? We have to cut him. One injury and his season is over anyway, and lists spots are valuable.

Cooney - talk about shooting Bambi, but is Coons physically able to even play AFL any more? Is he contracted for 2013? Is that contract backended? I would consider shaking his hand, paying him out, and telling him to enjoy his future media career while he can still walk.

rookies: retain Greenwood, Redpath and Jong

[LostDoggy]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

Panos seems like he has been around for ever, but is only 21. Yet we also have Redpath who plays an identical role and is younger, bigger, quicker and has the advantage of only being on the rookie list. So I have to cut Panos.

Redpath is a just over 1 month older than Panos.
Quicker? Not so sure about that.
Identical role? Never seen Redpath play anywhere other than chf whereas Panos is been everywhere.
2cm taller yes.
Redpath has performed no where near the level Panos has in VFL level.

If it was one versus the other then keep Panos but not sure either will be there next year.

[stefoid]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

Redpath is a just over 1 month older than Panos.
Quicker? Not so sure about that.
Identical role? Never seen Redpath play anywhere other than chf whereas Panos is been everywhere.
2cm taller yes.
Redpath has performed no where near the level Panos has in VFL level.

If it was one versus the other then keep Panos but not sure either will be there next year.

So you reckon Panos has hope of becoming something other than a leading forward?

We need more spots on the list so who else goes if Panos stays?

could drop Redpath and rookie panos suppose.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

I am assuming we plan to elevate Cambell, Johanisson and Austin to the main list, and draft 5 kids, so we need to cut 8 players. We also want to keep the rookie list open for fresh blood, so we keep those 3 vacated spots clear for the rookie draft.

Mulligan, Hooper, DJ and Moles have been given ample opportunity - there isnt any point to them clogging up positions at Williamstown any more.

Panos seems like he has been around for ever, but is only 21. Yet we also have Redpath who plays an identical role and is younger, bigger, quicker and has the advantage of only being on the rookie list. So I have to cut Panos.

Sherman... keep for next year. This year we are playing some kind of turtle-like defense at all costs game plan. I would like to see what Sherman can do next year when we (hopefully) open the game up a bit which is Shermans forte, if he has one.

Skinner - heart says yes, head says no. Split the difference, cut him, and re-rookie only if no better rookies are available at our last rookie pick.

Hargrave: I like his experience and versatility for depth in case we make the finals next year. Keep.

Gilbee - geez. This is a professional club, right? We have to cut him. One injury and his season is over anyway, and lists spots are valuable.

Cooney - talk about shooting Bambi, but is Coons physically able to even play AFL any more? Is he contracted for 2013? Is that contract backended? I would consider shaking his hand, paying him out, and telling him to enjoy his future media career while he can still walk.

rookies: retain Greenwood, Redpath and Jong

Maybe Cooney is thinking if his knee is shot anyway he may as well hang around and get
all the backended coin he has coming to him as he will be a long time retired and probably carry this injury for life.
Couldnt blame him really.

Agree with most of the rest , not sure on Panos.

You didn't mention Ves. I would put him in the same category as Sherman.

We need a couple of these mid age bracket guys to come good.

[stefoid]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

If we can afford to pay Coons out is there any reason having him on the list? - cant train, and because he cant train he cant play to his ability. Not convinced that 'having Cooney at 80% is better than player X at 100%'

Should have traded him to Hawthorn for two high draftpicks before they realized his knee was totally shot

[GVGjr]

Re: Retirements, Trades, Delistings and the Rookie list

If we can afford to pay Coons out is there any reason having him on the list? - cant train, and because he cant train he cant play to his ability. Not convinced that 'having Cooney at 80% is better than player X at 100%'

Should have traded him to Hawthorn for two high draftpicks before they realized his knee was totally shot

I don't see the logic in this. What would be the impact on the playing personnel to cut a one club player and Brownlow medalist like that?

We apparently want loyalty from players but equally we want to be able to treat them poorly when it suits us.