Pack your bags McCartney...

[jeemak]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

BT, I don't think anyone has an issue with questioning the coach constructively. I find it strange however, that just because people can't or don't understand what is trying to be achieved they assume the coaching team is out of its depth.

Especially when it's very clear we have serious talent issues across the ground, particularly up forward and with respect to outside midfield players.

Specifically in response to the above, I would suggest C is the closest to the mark. We do not use the ball very well due to the personnel we have at our disposal, and we struggle to defend fast breaking and well drilled sides (like Fremantle) due to the fitness level of our broader list and their experience (nous).

The key tenet of this football department has been to put time into coaching the players in playing a certain way. I don't think they're patting themselves on the back right now saying "we've done a fantastic job, let's get on the banana lounge" (in fact Bmac himself said in his press conference the club is impatient, just like the supporters).

If I was to hazard a guess, the MC would be incredibly frustrated with the skill level in general and the stagnation the team is showing. Perhaps there's been an underestimation of how far behind the curve some players are in their development.

[Remi Moses]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Carlton (0 and 4 and completely bereft of confidence when we played them)
Essendon (crippled by the supplement scandal issue and with no forward line to speak of when we played them)
Adelaide (lost at home to Melbourne the week after beating us so were in bad form)

None of these teams will feature in the finals in 2014 and all were very gettable on the day for various reasons. I also think we played Gold Coast and Norf at opportune times (GC complacent and Norf lacking confidence when they played us) and we were a less than even money chance to beat both. So really, 5 and 5 would have been the bare minimum pass mark for us to date this season IMO.

Disagree on Gold Coast and Norf . Those teams are just better than we are.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

BT, I don't think anyone has an issue with questioning the coach constructively. I find it strange however, that just because people can't or don't understand what is trying to be achieved they assume the coaching team is out of its depth.

Especially when it's very clear we have serious talent issues across the ground, particularly up forward and with respect to outside midfield players.

Specifically in response to the above, I would suggest C is the closest to the mark. We do not use the ball very well due to the personnel we have at our disposal, and we struggle to defend fast breaking and well drilled sides (like Fremantle) due to the fitness level of our broader list and their experience (nous).

The key tenet of this football department has been to put time into coaching the players in playing a certain way. I don't think they're patting themselves on the back right now saying "we've done a fantastic job, let's get on the banana lounge" (in fact Bmac himself said in his press conference the club is impatient, just like the supporters).

If I was to hazard a guess, the MC would be incredibly frustrated with the skill level in general and the stagnation the team is showing. Perhaps there's been an underestimation of how far behind the curve some players are in their development.

Unfortunately for the coaches, how the players respond to their teaching and game plan by the way of their form is how you have to judge them. For instance, Shannon Grant, based as his time as our forwards coach, do you think another club would be trying to poach him from us? How the forward line works is what he is charged to do, its just a way of life.

As for Macca, I think there are many on here, me included, that have questioned his match day tactics for the best part of two years. It's not only to do with this year, or last week. For all his strengths, and he has very many of them, heaps, tactically he seems to be (some say) predictable and/or not astute to the point he is outpointing his rival coach. Admitting a weakness isn't a reflection on the man, it's about saying if he's doing 75% of his job above average, and the other 25% can be improved by paying (say) Bomber Thompson to help him on match day. Criticism ought not to be a bad thing, I hate being called on personally, just ask a certain fellow Bendigonian, (sorry again) but I will take it in and change my behaviour or whatever where I can. Not at you JM, but society today seems harder to make criticism without hurting feelings or some people taking it the wrong way. When we can be truly honest about our weaknesses we can then properly address them for them to become strengths. Match day tactics are not Macca's strength, its just about fact. So if that's his only weakness, then address it, and help him help the team. Everyone has the capacity to continually improve and develop, players and coaches and even marketing managers or membership sales telephonists. At the end of the day, some of us are just saying we see an opportunity for Macca to excel at a perceived weakness with some support and structure. It comes from a good place and if it helps wins some games of footy next year, then why wouldn't we look at it as an opportunity and not as a threat?

[anfo27]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

it amazes me how many people question the game plan or match day tactics. Unless you are in the coaches box & know what is going on in there you really do not know what you are talking about. Is anyone on this forum ever been or is a full time football coach? Other than mjp i don't think anyone here is & even mjp is on the other side of the country & would not get a chance to watch us live.
Its like listening to SEN after a game. Every team that losses has fans ring up and say 'we have no plan b' or 'coach x can't coach'. Its laughable that a bloke who sits in an office all day can point a finger at a coach & question his tactics & game plan when he wouldn't know the first thing about coaching. Plenty on here who know plenty about football no doubt but just about everyone knows nothing about what goes on in the coaches box.

[chef]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

it amazes me how many people question the game plan or match day tactics. Unless you are in the coaches box & know what is going on in there you really do not know what you are talking about. Is anyone on this forum ever been or is a full time football coach? Other than mjp i don't think anyone here is & even mjp is on the other side of the country & would not get a chance to watch us live.
Its like listening to SEN after a game. Every team that losses has fans ring up and say 'we have no plan b' or 'coach x can't coach'. Its laughable that a bloke who sits in an office all day can point a finger at a coach & question his tactics & game plan when he wouldn't know the first thing about coaching. Plenty on here who know plenty about football no doubt but just about everyone knows nothing about what goes on in the coaches box.

Yep.

[Greystache]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

it amazes me how many people question the game plan or match day tactics. Unless you are in the coaches box & know what is going on in there you really do not know what you are talking about. Is anyone on this forum ever been or is a full time football coach? Other than mjp i don't think anyone here is & even mjp is on the other side of the country & would not get a chance to watch us live.
Its like listening to SEN after a game. Every team that losses has fans ring up and say 'we have no plan b' or 'coach x can't coach'. Its laughable that a bloke who sits in an office all day can point a finger at a coach & question his tactics & game plan when he wouldn't know the first thing about coaching. Plenty on here who know plenty about football no doubt but just about everyone knows nothing about what goes on in the coaches box.

It's a wonder any coach is ever sacked, they all do it as a full time job know exactly what they're doing. Sounds like it's impossible they could be getting it wrong.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

it amazes me how many people question the game plan or match day tactics. Unless you are in the coaches box & know what is going on in there you really do not know what you are talking about. Is anyone on this forum ever been or is a full time football coach? Other than mjp i don't think anyone here is & even mjp is on the other side of the country & would not get a chance to watch us live.
Its like listening to SEN after a game. Every team that losses has fans ring up and say 'we have no plan b' or 'coach x can't coach'. Its laughable that a bloke who sits in an office all day can point a finger at a coach & question his tactics & game plan when he wouldn't know the first thing about coaching. Plenty on here who know plenty about football no doubt but just about everyone knows nothing about what goes on in the coaches box.

Whilst I disagree with what you're saying, I fight to the death for your right to do so.

A ridiculous example: If I watch a game of chess do I need to be in the brain of the person (or super computer) to know if they are tactically astute? Surely one can observe the moves of pieces in either an attacking or defensive way to determine whether the tactics and moves are better or worse than their opponent. I don't play chess regularly, but I can see quite clearly if an opponent is likely to be easier than not to out outmaneuver after a period of time. I don't need to be a full time chess player to pass opinion any more than a coach who moves pieces around on a field. If one can't pass judgement on objective actualities, such as where a player is played, or how the coach maneuvers players in response to a move, such as a loose man in defence, then pack up this forum and let's find another outlet. Our opinion is subjective that's a given, the moves or not-moves are objective, and thus opinion of same can be made without needing to be an AFL coach et al.

[jeemak]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

I think there's a key ingredient when evaluating a coach's tactical and strategic nous, and that ingredient is the coach's objective. The reason why I'm not sold on the idea BMac needs an assistant of great experience or a rejig of the assistant panel (or be replaced himself) is because I don't know to what end his match day set-ups are executed.

Potentially this is where anfo was heading with his post, but I don't want to speak for him. Essentially, if the moves we see are obvious to us, then for the most part they'd be obvious to the coaching panel. The problem we have as spectators is trying to figure out why the obvious isn't being acted upon.

When the group is more settled after a little bit more development I would think a more tactical approach to game day activity from the box would be required. I think when teams are developing coach's have a tendency to let things play out more than they might with experienced players (who have been trained to play in multiple positions - something we're on record as wanting the vast majority of our players to be able to do).

Generally after a few years of having a reasonable list at their disposal you start to hear stories about whether a coach is any good in the box. It will be interesting if these stories start to build about the Bulldogs.

BT - To your question about Shannon Grant, I think the overwhelming thought from those within the industry when evaluating his situation and performance would be one of sympathy. He's had sweet FA at his disposal this year, though I doubt anyone would be really that eager to poach him at this point.

[anfo27]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

It's a wonder any coach is ever sacked, they all do it as a full time job know exactly what they're doing. Sounds like it's impossible they could be getting it wrong.

Well they are not sacked by people on a forum or talk back radio. Whoever is on the board or MC might know a little more than you and i.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

I think there's a key ingredient when evaluating a coach's tactical and strategic nous, and that ingredient is the coach's objective. The reason why I'm not sold on the idea BMac needs an assistant of great experience or a rejig of the assistant panel (or be replaced himself) is because I don't know to what end his match day set-ups are executed.

When the group is more settled after a little bit more development I would think a more tactical approach to game day activity from the box would be required. I think when teams are developing coach's have a tendency to let things play out more than they might with experienced players (who have been trained to play in multiple positions - something we're on record as wanting the vast majority of our players to be able to do).

Generally after a few years of having a reasonable list at their disposal you start to hear stories about whether a coach is any good in the box. It will be interesting if these stories start to build about the Bulldogs.

BT - To your question about Shannon Grant, I think the overwhelming thought from those within the industry when evaluating his situation and performance would be one of sympathy. He's had sweet FA at his disposal this year, though I doubt anyone would be really that eager to poach him at this point.

It's a tough industry, I know I couldn't do it. But in the cut throat world of the AFL, the club's administration needs to ask:

a) How is the forward line functioning?
b) Are Grant's plans being executed regularly by the players? (If not)
c) Is Grant's message now not having effect anymore?

The reality is coaches have a relatively short life from my reading of things. Players respond to some better than others (See Matt White at Port Adelaide this year) and some coaches are great at finding ways of motivating players. I've heard John Northey and Rob Walls were great speech makers and could fire the boys up, only problem is, at some point it becomes 'old' and doesn't have the effect to the same level.

I think Grant must have a better plan than what is being executed. So following the questions above, the next question is are the players listening anymore or is Grant's ability to educate them so reduced and/or limited to render him ineffectual as a coach?

I didn't mean to isolate Grant, but the issue is everyone need be looked at and for the assistants, how the players are playing or responding on field is a key KPI. To Macca, all many of us are saying is help him develop as a senior coach, give him more support and work to the end goal. I didn't hear Buckley saying no to his club giving him Eade, nor did I hear Hird say no to Bomber assisting him. It's not a negative, it need not be a reflection of negativity.

[anfo27]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Whilst I disagree with what you're saying, I fight to the death for your right to do so.

A ridiculous example: If I watch a game of chess do I need to be in the brain of the person (or super computer) to know if they are tactically astute? Surely one can observe the moves of pieces in either an attacking or defensive way to determine whether the tactics and moves are better or worse than their opponent. I don't play chess regularly, but I can see quite clearly if an opponent is likely to be easier than not to out outmaneuver after a period of time. I don't need to be a full time chess player to pass opinion any more than a coach who moves pieces around on a field. If one can't pass judgement on objective actualities, such as where a player is played, or how the coach maneuvers players in response to a move, such as a loose man in defence, then pack up this forum and let's find another outlet. Our opinion is subjective that's a given, the moves or not-moves are objective, and thus opinion of same can be made without needing to be an AFL coach et al.

You're right it is a ridiculous example bt. I love your passion for this great club of ours but unless you are in there you don't know why a move isn't made or is made for that matter. Last year for example we had loads of posters questioning maccas coaching ability because he wasn't making moves on kids who were getting beaten. Now either macca can't coach or maybe he wanted to learn something about the kids we have. Also there would be loads of moves macca and his team make every game or quarter even & we would notice a handful at best.

Its fine to have opinions & venting but it just rubs me the wrong way when people who probably have never played competitive sports let alone coached a group of men can claim a coach can't coach.

[Remi Moses]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Some on here need a serious dose of concrete

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Well they are not sacked by people on a forum or talk back radio. Whoever is on the board or MC might know a little more than you and i.

Discussion is a good thing. This club appointed Peter Rhode, the team agreed to corner Jade Rawlings in a crap deal, piss away picks and allow Brown to walk and nearly send West and Gilbee packing. I'd like to think that those of us screaming back then were justified and perhaps knew more about things than the board. Time will tell who is 'right' or who is 'wrong', but simply being in authority doesn't in and of itself mean they are right or wrong. There's nothing wrong with questioning authority in a considered way. Most posters on WOOF generally explain to the best of their ability why they have the opinion they do, and that's a good thing.

[Greystache]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Some on here need a serious dose of concrete

Are we really going to get a "be like me I celebrate the numbers of games I've watched us lose post in every thread"?

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

You're right it is a ridiculous example bt. I love your passion for this great club of ours but unless you are in there you don't know why a move isn't made or is made for that matter. Last year for example we had loads of posters questioning maccas coaching ability because he wasn't making moves on kids who were getting beaten. Now either macca can't coach or maybe he wanted to learn something about the kids we have. Also there would be loads of moves macca and his team make every game or quarter even & we would notice a handful at best.

Its fine to have opinions & venting but it just rubs me the wrong way when people who probably have never played competitive sports let alone coached a group of men can claim a coach can't coach.

Playing Gia as a permanent sub is quantifiable, and it's not working and needs to stop.
Allowing Freo to have one or two loose backman doesn't test any player
Not responding to midfield rotations is quantifiable
Not moving Griffen around when he was clearly getting smashed doesn't do much for anyone
Making Minson ruck one out for years is unfair more than anything

The argument that players will be better necessarily by being beaten is not a foolproof theory. How did Zac Dawson go for the first few years after Rocca smashed him?

No one has said that Macca cannot coach. Coaching is far, far more complex than just match day tactics and response to the game. All some have said is that this might be an area for his development as a coach and thus the team more generally.

That anyone need play the sport or have coached the sport in order to make comment... I just can't agree with it. Most journalists have never done the things they report on, basically the entire media report on things they've never done. Seriously, if your test for comment is having done it, then I don't have anything to comment on really????