Pack your bags McCartney...

[Bornadog]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

I think you're mashing many people's differing thoughts into one here. I'm the one putting the Griffen trade out there and my stance is, and always has been, that this rebuild will take many years.

I'm resigned to that and prepared to be patient. I also think that our performances are about where I expected them to be. Beyond that, I think think that, as Griffen is almost 28, it'd be beneficial to both he and the club's longer term prospects, to trade him to a club who will be contending over the next three years.

What you are forgetting is by the time we are challenging we need a couple of mature players around 28, 29 30 on the list. Who will they be?

[whythelongface]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

What you are forgetting is by the time we are challenging we need a couple of mature players around 28, 29 30 on the list. Who will they be?

Libba; MaCrae; Stringer; Bonts et al

[Webby]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

What you are forgetting is by the time we are challenging we need a couple of mature players around 28, 29 30 on the list. Who will they be?

Higgins will be 30-33, Crameri will be 29-32, Grant and Wood will be 28-31, Roughead and Jones will be 27-30.

Griffen will be 31-34. Dare I say retired by 32. Thus the point I raise to take a hard decision and trade him for a player who could be a genuine contributor for the whole of that next window.

My take is that we're here to win a premiership, not finish 9th rather than 12th or whatever.

[Scorlibo]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Higgins will be 30-33, Crameri will be 29-32, Grant and Wood will be 28-31, Roughead and Jones will be 27-30.

Griffen will be 31-34. Dare I say retired by 32. Thus the point I raise to take a hard decision and trade him for a player who could be a genuine contributor for the whole of that next window.

My take is that we're here to win a premiership, not finish 9th rather than 12th or whatever.

And how about all the young players who lose their will to play for a club which trades them away like prized pigs? How old will they be Webby? The answer is: it doesn't matter. The togetherness of the club and its players is number one at all times, it has to be.

[Greystache]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

And how about all the young players who lose their will to play for a club which trades them away like prized pigs? How old will they be Webby? The answer is: it doesn't matter. The togetherness of the club and its players is number one at all times, it has to be.

Like the way our most highly regarded 2 kids couldn't sign quickly enough when expansion teams came knocking on the door with big money, you mean that togetherness?

We've hung onto veterans longer than any other club and how shown loyalty to the point of pain, yet we were the only club to lose 2 talented young players to expansion.

[jeemak]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

That's a possibility, but if that is the case then we have been spectacularly unsuccessful in improving these other areas (presumably you're talking about run and spread, and transition of ball from defence to attack).

By contrast, we focused on contested ball and winning clearances from the start of BMac's tenure and we were very successful at improving our numbers in this area from day one. Now these areas have gone backwards significantly in 2014 and we have not improved any other areas of the game plan to compensate. It is a concern IMO - we appear to be a one-trick pony, and this one trick has already appeared to be counter-attacked and overcome by the opposition coaches.

And our drafting during the BMac years from 2011 until now has not come close to addressing our obvious pace and outside run deficiencies in the midfield, so this area of concern will not improve organically within our current list at all. Yes we need a contested marking power forward monster, but we need so much more, and we haven't really been effective in the last 3 years in addressing any of our other areas of weakness through the draft or trades.

The fact we have gone backwards in contested football this year and have not improved in other areas is my biggest concern at the moment. It is also my biggest question mark on the coach.

I see effort in the players I have no doubt they are trying and intensity is there BUT I dont see cohesion in the side at all. Seems players lack direction.

We average 12 less contested possessions this year per game. In 2013 we averaged 149 (2nd) per game, this year 137 (11th). The competition average in 139 (last year it was 140).

I'm not sure what you call significant. Perhaps a drop of 3 per quarter is material, perhaps it's not. It could represent a slight change in focus or a shift in player attitude.

I think the cattle we have at our disposal is a huge issue, and is hampering our ability to improve our ball movement at the rate we all want. Not having either of Jones or Campbell playing good contributing footy, and Grant injured hasn't helped with our structure and we desperately need straightening up.

Perhaps all of the coaches are out of their depth, or their message isn't cutting through and a different approach is required. Maybe our players are not very clever and take longer to learn than we realise.

I think the next few weeks with an improved forward structure will be quite telling.

[DISHLICKERS]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

We average 12 less contested possessions this year per game. In 2013 we averaged 149 (2nd) per game, this year 137 (11th). The competition average in 139 (last year it was 140).

I'm not sure what you call significant. Perhaps a drop of 3 per quarter is material, perhaps it's not. It could represent a slight change in focus or a shift in player attitude.

I think the cattle we have at our disposal is a huge issue, and is hampering our ability to improve our ball movement at the rate we all want. Not having either of Jones or Campbell playing good contributing footy, and Grant injured hasn't helped with our structure and we desperately need straightening up.

Perhaps all of the coaches are out of their depth, or their message isn't cutting through and a different approach is required. Maybe our players are not very clever and take longer to learn than we realise.

I think the next few weeks with an improved forward structure will be quite telling.

I tend to think that opposition sides have worked us out to an extent and have negated our game of stoppage after stoppage hence a fall in contensted possession as there have been less stoppages. Once the opposition achieve this they have been able to break the game open and we have sufferred and not dealt with it well at all.

[Webby]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

And how about all the young players who lose their will to play for a club which trades them away like prized pigs? How old will they be Webby? The answer is: it doesn't matter. The togetherness of the club and its players is number one at all times, it has to be.

Similarly to the way they reacted when we sold Templeton like a 'prized pig'. Quite well.
Seriously mate, do you think if Griffen were offered an opportunity to join a stronger list in his home town on the same coin with a crack at a premiership over the next three years, he wouldn't be willing to look at it?

As Tony McGuinness, Kim Koster & Murray Rance will testify, sometimes players actually want to move home. We get a bit emotive about this kind of discussion. This notion that everyone's desperate to stay is misplaced. If the move is mutually beneficial, it actually bodes well for player morale as it's clear the club doesn't trap players into staying in a place where their ambitions can't be met.

If Griffen want to be a premiership player, he needs to leave because we're highly unlikely to be able to provide him with that opportunity in the 3-4 years he has left.

[Remi Moses]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

It's a good healthy debate, but it won't happen.
The only memory I have of Sherman is running to quickly and having no poise.
Then promptly booting it on the full.

[Scorlibo]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Like the way our most highly regarded 2 kids couldn't sign quickly enough when expansion teams came knocking on the door with big money, you mean that togetherness?

We've hung onto veterans longer than any other club and how shown loyalty to the point of pain, yet we were the only club to lose 2 talented young players to expansion.

So you want to punish loyal players for the sins of disloyal ones?

As you've outlined, we're already an undesirable club to be at, players have left even in recent years for more coin when given the opportunity. But to embrace that? To say, 'if you play for us, and you're any good, we're willing to sell you for the right price', makes us just a cattle farm and nothing more.

Similarly to the way they reacted when we sold Templeton like a 'prized pig'. Quite well.
Seriously mate, do you think if Griffen were offered an opportunity to join a stronger list in his home town on the same coin with a crack at a premiership over the next three years, he wouldn't be willing to look at it?

As Tony McGuinness, Kim Koster & Murray Rance will testify, sometimes players actually want to move home. We get a bit emotive about this kind of discussion. This notion that everyone's desperate to stay is misplaced. If the move is mutually beneficial, it actually bodes well for player morale as it's clear the club doesn't trap players into staying in a place where their ambitions can't be met.

If Griffen want to be a premiership player, he needs to leave because we're highly unlikely to be able to provide him with that opportunity in the 3-4 years he has left.

I'm not saying everyone's desperate to stay - but we should be creating an environment where they are. It's a fundamental difference in outlook really, a question of whether you see the team's value as the sum of its parts. I don't. For me, the team is founded on joint values, a collective drive, and not on having good players in every position.

[Topdog]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Yes great idea. We won't worry about the fact that he has been quoted as saying how much he loves the Club, is our recently appointed captain and that he doesn't want to go anywhere. Let's get rid of Griff. Who cares about sentiment and loyalty. It's business and we want to win anyway we can.

I started giving up on that when Harbrow left and Ward going just furthered it.

[1eyedog]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

And how about all the young players who lose their will to play for a club which trades them away like prized pigs? How old will they be Webby? The answer is: it doesn't matter. The togetherness of the club and its players is number one at all times, it has to be.

Yep the club comes first but its the players who make it a good place to be. If we trade Griffen we may land Cameron but will he really be worth the heartache of axing your captain, best player, friend, kids hero and heart and soul of the club, because that is what Griffen is now. So in these deliberations I think we need to think long and hard about the outlay which is in my mind tearing a hole in the fabric of the club versus the return (e.g. Cameron). Further, what if we do this and we still don't get Cameron which is highly possible. What then for Griffen and the club? I agree that it will take a Griffen to get a Cameron but I'm not at all sure whether it would be worth it when you weigh up how committed Griffen has been to us.

Like the way our most highly regarded 2 kids couldn't sign quickly enough when expansion teams came knocking on the door with big money, you mean that togetherness?

We've hung onto veterans longer than any other club and how shown loyalty to the point of pain, yet we were the only club to lose 2 talented young players to expansion.

Griffen and Cooney turned down offers to return to Adelaide a number of years ago.

Similarly to the way they reacted when we sold Templeton like a 'prized pig'. Quite well.
Seriously mate, do you think if Griffen were offered an opportunity to join a stronger list in his home town on the same coin with a crack at a premiership over the next three years, he wouldn't be willing to look at it?

As Tony McGuinness, Kim Koster & Murray Rance will testify, sometimes players actually want to move home. We get a bit emotive about this kind of discussion. This notion that everyone's desperate to stay is misplaced. If the move is mutually beneficial, it actually bodes well for player morale as it's clear the club doesn't trap players into staying in a place where their ambitions can't be met.

If Griffen want to be a premiership player, he needs to leave because we're highly unlikely to be able to provide him with that opportunity in the 3-4 years he has left.

I seriously doubt it. He was offered big coin to return to Adelaide as a 23-24 year old with Adelaide as a potential top 4 side (they finished 4th or 5th I think) and he also had a sick Dad in Adelaide as well and he re-signed with the Bulldogs. There was a bit of media around it. I would be shocked if he accepted an offer at the same price point to be honest given what I have seen of Griffen the person since we drafted him into the club. He's had numerous chances to move on.

[Topdog]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

I'm not saying everyone's desperate to stay - but we should be creating an environment where they are. It's a fundamental difference in outlook really, a question of whether you see the team's value as the sum of its parts. I don't. For me, the team is founded on joint values, a collective drive, and not on having good players in every position.

Every other sport in the World has players coming and going non stop, it really doesn't affect their ability to compete. Why do we in Australia think we are so different?

Hawks losing Buddy will be great for them long term, great for him and great for Sydney. Players leave, its no biggy

[Bornadog]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Every other sport in the World has players coming and going non stop, it really doesn't affect their ability to compete. Why do we in Australia think we are so different?

Hawks losing Buddy will be great for them long term, great for him and great for Sydney. Players leave, its no biggy

When you don't have many good ones like Griffen, you do care

[Webby]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

So you want to punish loyal players for the sins of disloyal ones?

Hmmm. Just as we punished Brian Lake. The whole industry must view us as a pack of real bastards!
My point is, looking after a long serving player with a mutually beneficial trade is hardly disloyal nor is it 'punishment'.

It happens all the time in other sports. Sports that have been fully professional for more than just 20 years. We need to adapt quicker than we have in the past. It's not a social club, it's a profession. This team chemistry stuff is complete bunkum. Don Scott and Leigh Matthews despised each other, Roy Kean and Peter Schmeichel couldn't stand each other. This image that players need to all hold hands and sing Kumbaya is nonsensical.