Pack your bags McCartney...

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

The other guy Mark McClure (sp??) sounded like he thinks McCartney is all talk to me.

He also suggested we should offer Griff for Jeremy Cameron which i kind of agree with.

BTW any chance we can rename this thread as with its current name i hate clicking on it. The discussion inside is great but awful name.

Last year that should've been on the cards. We can't sell a club captain. Pound for pound as players, it makes some sense or at least arguable. But now he's a captain, I don't see how we do it unless they offer him $800,000 and it's mutual. But that's unrealistic.

[Webby]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Last year that should've been on the cards. We can't sell a club captain. Pound for pound as players, it makes some sense or at least arguable. But now he's a captain, I don't see how we do it unless they offer him $800,000 and it's mutual. But that's unrealistic.

I pointed out in another thread that the last time we sold a champion club captain was Templeton in 1982. Although terribly tough at the time, it was the best move the club could've made. (And believe me, I was distraught at the time!)

That was '82 and we enticed Chocco Royal from Bairnsdale, Andrew Purser and Jimmy Sewell with the money. We also nabbed Brad Hardie on the back of it.

We went from last in 1982 (our final game of that season remains our heaviest ever defeat) to a bee's dick from a grand final in 1985.

What's more, Royal won the '83 b&f, Purser the '84 b&f and Hardie the '85 Brownlow.

And at the time, all I could think was "who the fk are these no names? I want KT, sack the board!"

Point is, we need to occasionally open our minds and lead with our heads from time to time.

[Webby]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

I think that we’re up with the best in the league for inside contested footy. The thing that distorts the overall figure is our lack of outside contested footy. (As in gathering the loose ball on the run etc). For me this is our big deficiency. We don’t gather loose ball across half back and set up the way the better sides do. This includes run and carry as well. That deficiency also leads to poor delivery both around the ground and into the forward line. We simply don’t get clear air possessions in the volumes that the better sides do.

We have a two-pronged issue in that our delivery into the forward line is poor and we don’t have clear, structured targets. Drag it further back up the field and I’d point out that the lack of clean movement through midfield leads to a lack of space in our forward line. So with a lack of space, poor delivery and no genuine target, we really do have to scrap for scores. A lack of reward for effort is demoralising, whilst it also means we have to work twice as hard to put a score on the board. That leads to more scrappiness, less clean, slower movement, more forward line congestion and so on. There’s a combination of things and they have a multiplier effect.

However, just as one problem leads to another and things exacerbate, the same is true in reverse. If we can pursue some solutions such as trading an inside midfielder for an outside mid and/or a quality target, as well as getting some specific training into some players to improve their outside run and structure, I think we’ll find that those elements work as multipliers. Suddenly we’re disposing of the footy a lot better and making step improvements.

The only issue is that these things don’t happen throughout the course of one season. They have to occur over a few seasons. We’re still getting game time into a list of players which is largely 23 or under. Just think back for a moment. Doug Hawkins was 24 when he began to really go to the next level. Brad Johnson was 24 when he took the next step and probably played his best footy at around 29-30 years of age. This is a very, very young list and two thirds of them will be better players next year and better again the year after and so on. As they improve, they will be ready to learn more and more elements of the game. In four years time, they will be complete & will be contesting late into finals.

By the end of McCartney’s current contract, we will know whether or not we’re tracking to that schedule. As with clubs like North Melbourne, young lists are up and down and progress is not strictly lineal. It was always going to be a long road post 2012.
I guess the takeaway is patience. Patience is something that could be the great strength of our supporter base. The thing that’s killed Richmond in modern times has been their fan base’s complete lack of patience. They put huge pressure on their administrators and the results have been a series of silly, short term pressure valve decisions. Carlton have fallen into the same trap, whilst I hope to God that Essendon are following suit..!

Us, on the other hand, we’re building a good core of young blokes. Their individual development is more what I’m watching for at present. The game plan will be more of an issue in 2-3 years time.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

I pointed out in another thread that the last time we sold a champion club captain was Templeton in 1982. Although terribly tough at the time, it was the best move the club could've made. (And believe me, I was distraught at the time!)

That was '82 and we enticed Chocco Royal from Bairnsdale, Andrew Purser and Jimmy Sewell with the money. We also nabbed Brad Hardie on the back of it.

We went from last in 1982 (our final game of that season remains our heaviest ever defeat) to a bee's dick from a grand final in 1985.

What's more, Royal won the '83 b&f, Purser the '84 b&f and Hardie the '85 Brownlow.

And at the time, all I could think was "who the fk are these no names? I want KT, sack the board!"

Point is, we need to occasionally open our minds and lead with our heads from time to time.

My mind is open, for a crazy good price. Last year I was prepared to listen to all sides of the debate for Patton of Boyd etc. I don't think anyone is ever completely safe, I think Dennis Pagan once said he'd trade Wayne Carey for 6 first round draft picks (or some random number, etc). I'm not philosophically opposed to trading anyone, but when you make a player captain, it makes it very, very hard for a number of reasons and last year like Minno, the trade value was sky high - so my assumption is that we would have done it already if we had really wanted to. But any trade with any player needs to be a clear win for us. Trading in desperation (see Rhode in the dictionary) and then later with Sherman, Vez (etc) can't be allowed happen if people wnting to keep their roles think they need immediate wins. We're down the bottom so stick it out unlike bloody cheap as chips.

[Bulldog4life]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

The other guy Mark McClure (sp??) sounded like he thinks McCartney is all talk to me.

He also suggested we should offer Griff for Jeremy Cameron which i kind of agree with.

BTW any chance we can rename this thread as with its current name i hate clicking on it. The discussion inside is great but awful name.

Yes great idea. We won't worry about the fact that he has been quoted as saying how much he loves the Club, is our recently appointed captain and that he doesn't want to go anywhere. Let's get rid of Griff. Who cares about sentiment and loyalty. It's business and we want to win anyway we can.

[azabob]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

If we were to trade Griffen, which I am dead against - who would actually get the footy for us and take the game on?

Liberatore is our only other consistent ball winner, and his output goes down when he's heavily tagged.

Griffen very rarely has a poor day like he did on Sunday.

No point having Cameron with no one being able to get the footy to him.


Hence why my prefrence is first and formost an outside quick running player who has the ability to hit targets by foot and hand over any distance.

[Sedat]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Sedat, would it be possible that contested ball numbers are down as a result of trying to adjust the plan to concentrate on other areas?

That's a possibility, but if that is the case then we have been spectacularly unsuccessful in improving these other areas (presumably you're talking about run and spread, and transition of ball from defence to attack).

By contrast, we focused on contested ball and winning clearances from the start of BMac's tenure and we were very successful at improving our numbers in this area from day one. Now these areas have gone backwards significantly in 2014 and we have not improved any other areas of the game plan to compensate. It is a concern IMO - we appear to be a one-trick pony, and this one trick has already appeared to be counter-attacked and overcome by the opposition coaches.

And our drafting during the BMac years from 2011 until now has not come close to addressing our obvious pace and outside run deficiencies in the midfield, so this area of concern will not improve organically within our current list at all. Yes we need a contested marking power forward monster, but we need so much more, and we haven't really been effective in the last 3 years in addressing any of our other areas of weakness through the draft or trades.

[Webby]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

My mind is open, for a crazy good price. Last year I was prepared to listen to all sides of the debate for Patton of Boyd etc. I don't think anyone is ever completely safe, I think Dennis Pagan once said he'd trade Wayne Carey for 6 first round draft picks (or some random number, etc). I'm not philosophically opposed to trading anyone, but when you make a player captain, it makes it very, very hard for a number of reasons and last year like Minno, the trade value was sky high - so my assumption is that we would have done it already if we had really wanted to. But any trade with any player needs to be a clear win for us. Trading in desperation (see Rhode in the dictionary) and then later with Sherman, Vez (etc) can't be allowed happen if people wnting to keep their roles think they need immediate wins. We're down the bottom so stick it out unlike bloody cheap as chips.

The Sherman trade was a perfect example of short sightedness winning over patience. (I feel justified in saying this as I called it as such at the time to any mate that would listen)
Giving up a priority pick for an average mature age player was part of the reason that our list now has a hole in it for 24+ year olds.

The Griffen option is the opposite scenario. It’s short term pain for a longer term gain. We pretty much know that our window won’t be open for 3-4 years. Griff will be 28 by the time the season’s out.
If, say, Adelaide finish off the year strongly (with Walker back) and feel that they are a good chance of seriously challenging in the next 2-3 years, would they be interested in perhaps taking Griff for their first round pick?

And honestly tell me this one: As an Adelaide boy who’s staring down the barrel of 3 of his remaining 4 years being a non-contender, would Griff be grateful for the opportunity to head home?
This scenario is a part on good terms, no bitterness, mutually beneficial scenario. What’s more, you get an opportunity opening up for a Stringer, Smith, Bontempelli or Macrae to step up and develop.

Then, once you’re holding (approx) picks 4, 12 and 21, you have a fair few options opening up to you. It’s just a thought. One I think worth seriously considering.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

The Sherman trade was a perfect example of short sightedness winning over patience. (I feel justified in saying this as I called it as such at the time to any mate that would listen)
Giving up a priority pick for an average mature age player was part of the reason that our list now has a hole in it for 24+ year olds.

The Griffen option is the opposite scenario. It’s short term pain for a longer term gain. We pretty much know that our window won’t be open for 3-4 years. Griff will be 28 by the time the season’s out.
If, say, Adelaide finish off the year strongly (with Walker back) and feel that they are a good chance of seriously challenging in the next 2-3 years, would they be interested in perhaps taking Griff for their first round pick?

And honestly tell me this one: As an Adelaide boy who’s staring down the barrel of 3 of his remaining 4 years being a non-contender, would Griff be grateful for the opportunity to head home?
This scenario is a part on good terms, no bitterness, mutually beneficial scenario. What’s more, you get an opportunity opening up for a Stringer, Smith, Bontempelli or Macrae to step up and develop.

Then, once you’re holding (approx) picks 4, 12 and 21, you have a fair few options opening up to you. It’s just a thought. One I think worth seriously considering.

If Griff's up for it sure. And I agree with your position in and of itself, but the captain tag is what the playing group, board, members and fans might be concerned about as to culture, loyalty, fairness (etc). If he wen't over (I'd pick Port myself), and that would need to look a first rounder (17) and Jon Butcher as a minimum. I just don't see it ever happening, so I don't disagree with you on the substantive issue, I just don't think it's probable, that's all.

[Webby]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

If we were to trade Griffen, which I am dead against - who would actually get the footy for us and take the game on?

Liberatore is our only other consistent ball winner, and his output goes down when he's heavily tagged.

Griffen very rarely has a poor day like he did on Sunday.

No point having Cameron with no one being able to get the footy to him.


Hence why my prefrence is first and formost an outside quick running player who has the ability to hit targets by foot and hand over any distance.

No one doubts it would clearly be a backward step in the shorter term. However the argument is it would be beneficial in the longer term. I think Macrae will continue to develop into an A grader. Stringer, Bontempelli, Smith, Hrovat, Dahlhaus, Libba, Wallis etc are all young midfielders and they'll all be in their prime in our next window.

Plus, if Griffen is traded, we could actually give Boyd one last year, rather than moving on a player who would otherwise have been bottleknecking our list. He'd then play a useful bridging role as a mature body in the mix. With Griff et al, he'll be a list clogger next year.

[Sedat]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

The Sherman trade was a perfect example of short sightedness winning over patience. (I feel justified in saying this as I called it as such at the time to any mate that would listen)
Giving up a priority pick for an average mature age player was part of the reason that our list now has a hole in it for 24+ year olds.

Let me state for the public record that I also HATED this trade from day 1. He was a player that had one good season out of 7 at the time we traded for him and he was a perennially terrible decision-maker with ball in hand. I think we've forgotten how good Harbrow was at a very young age, and we've missed his run and dare out of half-back terribly since he left...and we effectively got nothing at all out of him leaving.

Goes without saying that we miss Ward as well but at least his departure gave us a fantastic silver lining in Jack Macrae.

[G-Mo77]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Let me state for the public record........

That I was actually pleased with the trade.

Yes it's a shock because as most of you know I was his biggest fan. I thought he had the line breaking ability that we needed and was a good age to work with. How wrong was I! I really didn't understand the value of those picks and clearly did not know much about Sherman. We made a huge blunder.

[Hot_Doggies]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Interesting in a thread called 'pack your bags McCartney' people are talking about trading our best player.

Not happy with a slow rebuild on one hand but would like to sell a club champ and bottom out further....

[Webby]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

Interesting in a thread called 'pack your bags McCartney' people are talking about trading our best player.

Not happy with a slow rebuild on one hand but would like to sell a club champ and bottom out further....

I think you're mashing many people's differing thoughts into one here. I'm the one putting the Griffen trade out there and my stance is, and always has been, that this rebuild will take many years.

I'm resigned to that and prepared to be patient. I also think that our performances are about where I expected them to be. Beyond that, I think think that, as Griffen is almost 28, it'd be beneficial to both he and the club's longer term prospects, to trade him to a club who will be contending over the next three years.

[DISHLICKERS]

Re: Pack your bags McCartney...

That's a possibility, but if that is the case then we have been spectacularly unsuccessful in improving these other areas (presumably you're talking about run and spread, and transition of ball from defence to attack).

By contrast, we focused on contested ball and winning clearances from the start of BMac's tenure and we were very successful at improving our numbers in this area from day one. Now these areas have gone backwards significantly in 2014 and we have not improved any other areas of the game plan to compensate. It is a concern IMO - we appear to be a one-trick pony, and this one trick has already appeared to be counter-attacked and overcome by the opposition coaches.

And our drafting during the BMac years from 2011 until now has not come close to addressing our obvious pace and outside run deficiencies in the midfield, so this area of concern will not improve organically within our current list at all. Yes we need a contested marking power forward monster, but we need so much more, and we haven't really been effective in the last 3 years in addressing any of our other areas of weakness through the draft or trades.

The fact we have gone backwards in contested football this year and have not improved in other areas is my biggest concern at the moment. It is also my biggest question mark on the coach.

I see effort in the players I have no doubt they are trying and intensity is there BUT I dont see cohesion in the side at all. Seems players lack direction.