Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

[jeemak]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

Sedat, what has come out of this pandemic is how selfish people are and all they think about is themselves and don't give a stuff about anyone else - that's my observation.

Ironically, I think that's part of Sedat's observation as well.

[jeemak]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

Such a delicate one. I get the feeling I probably sit around bornadog's general political position, however I feel we need greater empathy all round.

I agree with Sedat in terms of not demonising these people. I can get people bending the rules a little, I don't agree but this really sucks and we don't know the mental health toll on everyone. Definitely don't excuse things like the Richmond pub crawl etc.

Contrary to that though, I think it's also very understandable why people are worried about Covid and wanting to follow measures as strictly as possible so we 1/ are safe and 2/ get out of lockdown ASAP.

Thing is we are all different. With different entry points, triggers, so many things. Empathy is hard.

I agree, empathy goes both ways.

[jazzadogs]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

I happened across this scholarly article the other day and thought there were some interesting points.

Notably in relation to the discussion above:

"Since long-term restrictive measures come with enormous collateral damage and real-world conditions lead individuals to take some risks, the way forward is to advocate a harm reduction approach instead of social abstinence-only policy [29, 38, 77]. Applied to COVID-19, harm reduction entails enhancing awareness about SARS-CoV-2 transmission and infection risk mitigation, self-assessment of risk related to personal activities, and engagement through alternatives of safer socializing. Although finding balance in the response plans is not an easy task, harm reduction is a sustainable and realistic strategy and a way of negotiating a middle ground. Allowing people to make their own compromises and informed judgments make harm reduction an ethically correct approach that enhances community engagement and trust [30, 77]. In contrast, COVID-19 absolutismFootnote10 is not a viable or reasonable strategy [133].

Scolding and moral outrage are counterproductive to the COVID-19 response and can perpetuate stigma. Casting shame and blame on people violating public health measures should be avoided [29, 134, 135]. Incentivized messaging works better than “pandemic shaming” and condescending messaging (e.g., #covidiots, #dontbestupid, #letthemdie) [77, 134–136]. Effective risk communication and education campaigns are therefore central to harm reduction. Harm reduction strategies may also encourage infected individuals to self-isolate and their contacts to self-quarantine in order to prevent further transmission."

I am also an advocate for people being allowed to gather outdoors in small groups. I have very little issue with the 'Richmond Pub Crawl' (which was not a pub crawl, just a list of places in Richmond selling takeaway drinks) and the 'Northcote street party' (a few people stopping on the street to drink their coffee while a guy played music from his balcony). The risk of transmission outdoors, unless sharing food/body contact/equipment, is extremely low. Taking away this freedom is more likely to lead to people making riskier choices and having visitors inside the home - which is far riskier.

"the existing evidence consistently highlights outdoor transmission as a negligible driver of the pandemic, compared with indoor transmission"
"The scarce instances of outdoor SARS-CoV-2 transmission suggest an extremely low risk of transmission [40, 138, 139]. Four studies have found that 0.03% [36], 0.11% [140], 0.87% [119], and 2.3% [37] of reported SARS-CoV-2 cases seem to have occurred in outdoor settings."

[comrade]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

I happened across this scholarly article the other day and thought there were some interesting points.

Notably in relation to the discussion above:

"Since long-term restrictive measures come with enormous collateral damage and real-world conditions lead individuals to take some risks, the way forward is to advocate a harm reduction approach instead of social abstinence-only policy [29, 38, 77]. Applied to COVID-19, harm reduction entails enhancing awareness about SARS-CoV-2 transmission and infection risk mitigation, self-assessment of risk related to personal activities, and engagement through alternatives of safer socializing. Although finding balance in the response plans is not an easy task, harm reduction is a sustainable and realistic strategy and a way of negotiating a middle ground. Allowing people to make their own compromises and informed judgments make harm reduction an ethically correct approach that enhances community engagement and trust [30, 77]. In contrast, COVID-19 absolutismFootnote10 is not a viable or reasonable strategy [133].

Scolding and moral outrage are counterproductive to the COVID-19 response and can perpetuate stigma. Casting shame and blame on people violating public health measures should be avoided [29, 134, 135]. Incentivized messaging works better than “pandemic shaming” and condescending messaging (e.g., #covidiots, #dontbestupid, #letthemdie) [77, 134–136]. Effective risk communication and education campaigns are therefore central to harm reduction. Harm reduction strategies may also encourage infected individuals to self-isolate and their contacts to self-quarantine in order to prevent further transmission."

I am also an advocate for people being allowed to gather outdoors in small groups. I have very little issue with the 'Richmond Pub Crawl' (which was not a pub crawl, just a list of places in Richmond selling takeaway drinks) and the 'Northcote street party' (a few people stopping on the street to drink their coffee while a guy played music from his balcony). The risk of transmission outdoors, unless sharing food/body contact/equipment, is extremely low. Taking away this freedom is more likely to lead to people making riskier choices and having visitors inside the home - which is far riskier.

"the existing evidence consistently highlights outdoor transmission as a negligible driver of the pandemic, compared with indoor transmission"
"The scarce instances of outdoor SARS-CoV-2 transmission suggest an extremely low risk of transmission [40, 138, 139]. Four studies have found that 0.03% [36], 0.11% [140], 0.87% [119], and 2.3% [37] of reported SARS-CoV-2 cases seem to have occurred in outdoor settings."

Excellent post!

[Grantysghost]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

I happened across this scholarly article the other day and thought there were some interesting points.

Notably in relation to the discussion above:

"Since long-term restrictive measures come with enormous collateral damage and real-world conditions lead individuals to take some risks, the way forward is to advocate a harm reduction approach instead of social abstinence-only policy [29, 38, 77]. Applied to COVID-19, harm reduction entails enhancing awareness about SARS-CoV-2 transmission and infection risk mitigation, self-assessment of risk related to personal activities, and engagement through alternatives of safer socializing. Although finding balance in the response plans is not an easy task, harm reduction is a sustainable and realistic strategy and a way of negotiating a middle ground. Allowing people to make their own compromises and informed judgments make harm reduction an ethically correct approach that enhances community engagement and trust [30, 77]. In contrast, COVID-19 absolutismFootnote10 is not a viable or reasonable strategy [133].

Scolding and moral outrage are counterproductive to the COVID-19 response and can perpetuate stigma. Casting shame and blame on people violating public health measures should be avoided [29, 134, 135]. Incentivized messaging works better than “pandemic shaming” and condescending messaging (e.g., #covidiots, #dontbestupid, #letthemdie) [77, 134–136]. Effective risk communication and education campaigns are therefore central to harm reduction. Harm reduction strategies may also encourage infected individuals to self-isolate and their contacts to self-quarantine in order to prevent further transmission."

I am also an advocate for people being allowed to gather outdoors in small groups. I have very little issue with the 'Richmond Pub Crawl' (which was not a pub crawl, just a list of places in Richmond selling takeaway drinks) and the 'Northcote street party' (a few people stopping on the street to drink their coffee while a guy played music from his balcony). The risk of transmission outdoors, unless sharing food/body contact/equipment, is extremely low. Taking away this freedom is more likely to lead to people making riskier choices and having visitors inside the home - which is far riskier.

"the existing evidence consistently highlights outdoor transmission as a negligible driver of the pandemic, compared with indoor transmission"
"The scarce instances of outdoor SARS-CoV-2 transmission suggest an extremely low risk of transmission [40, 138, 139]. Four studies have found that 0.03% [36], 0.11% [140], 0.87% [119], and 2.3% [37] of reported SARS-CoV-2 cases seem to have occurred in outdoor settings."

Pretty sensible stuff. Only unknown is the Indian Delta variant which isn't mentioned in that article. Quick journal search there's no concrete data yet but it's safe to assume it's more transmissible outside. How much? Unknown.

The pub crawl, I know someone heavily involved. I had this argument with him. Just draw a graph alcohol over time v compliance with most humans and I'm happy with that answer

[jeemak]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

Good post JD.

[jazzadogs]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

Pretty sensible stuff. Only unknown is the Indian Delta variant which isn't mentioned in that article. Quick journal search there's no concrete data yet but it's safe to assume it's more transmissible outside. How much? Unknown.

The pub crawl, I know someone heavily involved. I had this argument with him. Just draw a graph alcohol over time v compliance with most humans and I'm happy with that answer

You're right about Delta, but there is also very minimal suggestion from the contact tracing that they have done in NSW and Vic that there is significant transmission outdoors (although annoyingly that very specific question "how many of these cases are suspected to have been transmitted outdoors" was dodged at both NSW and Vic press conferences). I agree that the optics of people gathering outdoors is not good - I know I was shocked to see the number of families at a local playground when I was walking on Sunday - but I just don't think there is much risk attached, I don't think they have any data to back up the curfew/increased restrictions on outdoor activities, and I think it will lead to more risky indoor activities.

I am also required to work on-site at a school at the moment, so I find it interesting that it's deemed okay for me to be on-site with 70 vulnerable students and other staff but I can't go see my family in a park.

[Bornadog]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

Pretty sensible stuff. Only unknown is the Indian Delta variant which isn't mentioned in that article. Quick journal search there's no concrete data yet but it's safe to assume it's more transmissible outside. How much? Unknown.

The pub crawl, I know someone heavily involved. I had this argument with him. Just draw a graph alcohol over time v compliance with most humans and I'm happy with that answer

Just more selfishness - what harm can a pub crawl do, "yeah, I am a medico, I know what I am doing ".

As it stands, the more we vaccinate, the quicker we get out of these lockdowns, as we are all over it.

[soupman]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

Some good opinions here.

I think the crucial part is that we need to keep people interested. I am in Sydney so my last 18 months have been rather different to most here, but I would guess that a lot of people are exhausted from it all and struggling to see a way out.

There must be a way to reward good behaviour and offer a lower risk alternative to bad behaviour. Yes socialising should be limited, but so many people have gone months of their life without seeing people they love, like, or even just know. I've noticed the effect this has had on numerous people and how their mood and even personality has changed throughout this pandemic, and the continual ramping up of rules and restrictions is a complete gut punch to everyone that already perceives themselves as doing the right thing.

People should be able to do things responsibly, like hang out in parks and even see one other person from a different household for an outside activity. The more chances you can give to people to have positive events in their life means they are less likely to go down either the path where they just continually put their whole life on hold or decide it's not worth it and just blow it all up.

I understand the frustration of a lot of people, including BADs pov, but cannot get on board with people being criticised for enjoying what they can in life, even if it does bend or break the rules, when it is clearly fine and safe.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

Good posts JD and Soup.

Sadly it's now a mob mentality; could write all day on government / mainstream media / social media etc who have now conditioned the majority to this type of behaviour.

[Mantis]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

The general filling amongst my friends & family is that life is pretty *!*!*!*!ing shit about now.... 18 months of being in and out of lockdown for us in Melbourne is taking it's toll.

I should be whacking a little white ball around in the sun in Tasmania, but instead I'm cooped up in my apartment staring aimlessly at my computer having cancelled another weeks holidays... because it's no *!*!*!*!ing fun being on holidays when you can't do anything.

Over.It.

[jeemak]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

The general filling amongst my friends & family is that life is pretty *!*!*!*!ing shit about now.... 18 months of being in and out of lockdown for us in Melbourne is taking it's toll.

I should be whacking a little white ball around in the sun in Tasmania, but instead I'm cooped up in my apartment staring aimlessly at my computer having cancelled another weeks holidays... because it's no *!*!*!*!ing fun being on holidays when you can't do anything.

Over.It.

Man, sorry you've had to miss out on your trip to Barnbougle!

I feel for you and others as I had to cancel a trip to Hotham this year, haven't had much time off over the last three years due to being flat out in Vietnam and coming back to COVID, getting out of lockdown but working fifty to sixty hour weeks and going back into lockdown.

It's tiring/ exhausting, but people are doing it worse than I. What I have found is that people are far less savage to each other than they were throughout the main lockdown last year when it comes to work. I think people are more understanding of the pressures.

[Eastdog]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

I’m over it!

I’m ok but it’s tough.

[Bornadog]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

I’m over it!

I’m ok but it’s tough.

Look after your self, stay positive as much as you can. Hopefully a Doggies win will put a smile on all our faces

[GVGjr]

Re: Coronavirus Info & Helpful Direction

I’m over it!

I’m ok but it’s tough.

I hear you Easty and I consider myself one of the real lucky ones.