Second half fade outs

[Mantis]

Re: Second half fade outs

Nice to see some common sense applied on this. I commend LongWait and HairyMidget's viewpoint on this subject. A lack of negativity and some foresight. So long as I can see direction and progress for the club, I'm patient enough to wait. Christ, from what I'm reading on this forum, I get the feeling a lot of posters would prefer the club to jab up Cooney's knee, rush Morris back from injury and cover the spread. As no great lover of Essendon, I've taken great delight in their supporters' lack of patience meaning that they've completely mid managed their 5 year premiership plan. Patience is a virtue. Look at Geelong and Hawthorn's approach 8 or 9 years ago. They took the long term view and developed a list capable of premiership footy. Impatience is a killer for footy clubs. Unlike Richmond and Essendon, if nothing else, patience should be our strength. Try to enjoy the build up to our next run at it. Embrace it. It's early days, but we're trying to build something here. Don't focus on ripping it all down before its even had a chance to begin!

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Second half fade outs

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.

To me you draft and develop to build your foundation, you trade to fill the gaps. To me you can't do one without the other, hence why I'm not opposed to either form.
You don't think Hawthorne have done this? Yes their numbers maybe lopsided to the trade side, but surely their "foundation" was built off development? So Webby is still right in what he is saying?

[SlimPickens]

Re: Second half fade outs

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.

Not sure I can agree mantis. Hawthorn in their last premiership had 3 players which they traded in, one of which was Trent Croad who was previously a Hawthorn person. Brent Guerra and Stewy Dew were hardly the nucleus of a premiership team but filled very important gaps. I'd suggest that side is a prime example of how to develop a premiership team.

[Mofra]

Re: Second half fade outs

You don't think Hawthorne have done this? Yes their numbers maybe lopsided to the trade side, but surely their "foundation" was built of development? So Webby is still right in what he is saying?

Aside from Dew their premiership was built on a core of Crawford, Franklin, Roughead, Hodge, Bateman, Lewis et al.

Draft for the best and trade to fill in the gaps seems to be the way most premierships are built - Geelong gave up two first rounders for Ottens IIRC, on the way to recycling former Port player Tom Harley into a duel premiership captain and drafting mature agers along the way (Harry Taylor & Pods).

Worth noting Geelong offered a 5 year deal to an inconsistent HFFer as well, turned out pretty well for them in the end

[LongWait]

Re: Second half fade outs

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.

Utter garbage. Get your facts right. In 2008 we had traded in more players (6 on the senior list) than Hawthorn (3 on the senior list, including Croad who was originally a Hawk) and so did almost all AFL clubs. Hawthorn also nailed their drafting moreso than most sides in the past 6 to 10 years.

[MrMahatma]

Re: Second half fade outs

Nothing wrong with trading, in or out. So long as you actually get guys who fill the holes you have - not just trading for the sake of it like we seem to do with the likes of DJ, Vespa etc.

[Webby]

Re: Second half fade outs

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.

Worst possible example?? Of the top 19 of Hawthorn's 2008 premiership season B&F count, only one player (Brent Guerra) was not drafted straight off the vine by the Hawks and developed by the club!

So how Hawthorn is the 'worst possible example' for my point is beyond me!

Hawthorn FC 2008 B&F count:
1. Buddy Franklin
2. Sam Mitchell
3. Luke Hodge
4. Brad Sewell
5. Jordan Lewis
6. Jarryd Roughead
7. Chance Bateman
8. Brent Guerrra
9. Grant Birchall
10. Mark Williams
11. Cyril Rioli
12. Shane Crawford
13. Campbell Brown
14. Michael Osborne
15. Rick Ladson
16. Clinton Young
17. Xavier Ellis
18 Jarryd Morton
19. Travis Tuck

Before you mention Dew, please note tha BOTH he and Guerra were picked up for NOTHING. They were free, gratis, on the house. Nothing was traded for them and Clarkson had coached them as an assistant at Port... (A bit like what McCartney has done with Tom Campbell). Please also note that for the FIVE years between 2002 and 2006, Hawthorn missed finals. For three of those five, they finished bottom three. During this period, they traded Croad and Rawlings (to some bunch of dills!) for draft picks. During that time, they drafted the core of the list above... Five long, painful, but in hindsight, GREAT years for the Hawthorn Footy Club. As I say, patience is a virtue! Chin up FFS!!

[Sedat]

Re: Second half fade outs

Hawthorn have developed and drafted well from within but the difference between Hawthorm and the Bulldogs circa 2008-2010 was ultimately Dew. When all is said and done, Dew's 20 minute cameo got Hawthorn their only premiership with this group.

[Mofra]

Re: Second half fade outs

Since that time the Harks have traded pretty well - Josh Gibson has been handy, ditto Hale, Gunstan looks good and they managed picks for surplus types (McGlynn & Kennedy to Swans).

They did fluff a few first rounders too so they are a solid basis for comparison

[G-Mo77]

Re: Second half fade outs

They did fluff a few first rounders too so they are a solid basis for comparison

The ones they got for Hay and Thompson? If it was it might be a little karma. The police should have been called when those deals went through.

[Greystache]

Re: Second half fade outs

The ones they got for Hay and Thompson? If it was it might be a little karma. The police should have been called when those deals went through.

Not quite, they got a first round draft pick for Hay in 2005 but it was pick 18 (Max Bailey)

Thompson was traded in 2004 for pick 10 (on traded for Bo Nixon) and pick 26 (Matt Little)

So in the end they didn't win out of their dodgy dealing, with Bailey being the best and having produced very little.

They did however in 2005 get pick 14 (Grant Birchall) from Port Adelaide for Nathan Lonie. that has Peter Rohde written all over it.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Second half fade outs

Hawthorn have developed and drafted well from within but the difference between Hawthorm and the Bulldogs circa 2008-2010 was ultimately Dew. When all is said and done, Dew's 20 minute cameo got Hawthorn their only premiership with this group.

That's play ground talk.
They still had to get there and it was more than Dew who did that.

If a midfield busts it's arse to get a ball to a guy all alone in the goal square, you don't run and pat the goal scorer on the back.

Yes Dew's 20mins put them in the box seat in that GF, but a premiership starts well before that.

[Webby]

Re: Second half fade outs

Hawthorn have developed and drafted well from within but the difference between Hawthorm and the Bulldogs circa 2008-2010 was ultimately Dew. When all is said and done, Dew's 20 minute cameo got Hawthorn their only premiership with this group.

Well.... Hawthorn drafted Dew post 2007 when they were poised to challenge. Right on the cusp.... and they were poised to challenge because of Mitchell, Hodge, Riolli, Lewis, Bateman, Franklin, Roughead etc. Christ, the had climbed from 2nd last in '04 and 3rd
last in '05 to have a genuine flag shot by the time Dew was plucked. Dew had a good game on the big day, granted (although Hodge's game was better), but without the basis of all the home grown draftees above, Dew would've been just another fat bloke struggling in a mid table side. So it bugs me when people say "Stewie Dew = drafting 30 year old fat blokes is the way to go!"

Believe me, Hawthorn didn't climb from 2nd last in '04 to Premiers in '08 by drafting a raft of recycled players. Dew was the grain of sugar on top of the cherry, on top of the icing on the cake!

[LongWait]

Re: Second half fade outs

Well.... Hawthorn drafted Dew post 2007 when they were poised to challenge. Right on the cusp.... and they were poised to challenge because of Mitchell, Hodge, Riolli, Lewis, Bateman, Franklin, Roughead etc. Christ, the had climbed from 2nd last in '04 and 3rd
last in '05 to have a genuine flag shot by the time Dew was plucked. Dew had a good game on the big day, granted (although Hodge's game was better), but without the basis of all the home grown draftees above, Dew would've been just another fat bloke struggling in a mid table side. So it bugs me when people say "Stewie Dew = drafting 30 year old fat blokes is the way to go!"

Believe me, Hawthorn didn't climb from 2nd last in '04 to Premiers in '08 by drafting a raft of recycled players. Dew was the grain of sugar on top of the cherry, on top of the icing on the cake!

Agree completely. And I also agree that Hawthorn from 2003 to 2008 are the blueprint for what we have to do.

[Webby]

Re: Second half fade outs

Agree completely. And I also agree that Hawthorn from 2003 to 2008 are the blueprint for what we have to do.

I only joined Woof a few weeks back and I'm surprised to see how many sad sacks there are on the forum. People seem to genuinely think that McCartney should be waiving some kind of magic wand and have a bunch of 18 year olds suddenly out-muscling 25 year olds. Do people honestly think Wallis, Liberatore, Smith, Cordy etc will not be far better players at 25 than they are today? Geez, Brad Johnson used to get knocked off the ball and struggled to run out games in his early career BECAUSE HE WAS A KID!... Point is, you turn 19 the year after you turn 18. You dont turn 25! in order to get a 25 year old champion (as Johnno became) you have to wait! McCartney does not have a magic fast forward button! Fair enough this has been a tough year, but we'll have 10-15 players who will almost certainly be better for this year's experience. They'll know exactly what they need to work on over the summer. Next year this forum will probably have a page discussing last quarter fade outs, rather than 2nd half ones... but eventually even the sad sacks might just lighten up when this group matures. Point is, it'll take a couple more years: