2021 Trade Period Talk

[GVGjr]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Does he need to cover as much ground for as long as a forward/ ruck, compared to a ruck? If he doesn't, then it might be an opportunity to get more bulk on him at the expense of being able to cover as much ground as a full time ruck does.

More forward training would need to be on the cards as well.

I don't think he needs more bulk. He's done 5 pre-seasons and he's certainly not the skinny kid who first arrived at the club.
At his best he looks pretty good but our window is now and if a great offer came then we should look at it.

I'm not sure what our plan was to develop English into a premier ruck man. The year we drafted him we let Minson go, a couple of years later Campbell and Roughead were both let go with a minimal effort to keep Roughead late in proceedings.
We added a long term prospect in Jordon Sweet and a part timer ruck in Trengove and brought in the ageing Stef Martin as JT's replacement. He's really only been seen as a forward this year so it seemed like a bit of an after thought.

Did we do enough to set him up for success? Granted we've given him plenty of opportunity by throwing him into the deep end but I think the way we value the role of a ruckman is flawed.

[1eyedog]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

I don't think he needs more bulk. He's done 5 pre-seasons and he's certainly not the skinny kid who first arrived at the club.
At his best he looks pretty good but our window is now and if a great offer came then we should look at it.

I'm not sure what our plan was to develop English into a premier ruck man. The year we drafted him we let Minson go, a couple of years later Campbell and Roughead were both let go with a minimal effort to keep Roughead late in proceedings.
We added a long term prospect in Jordon Sweet and a part timer ruck in Trengove and brought in the ageing Stef Martin as JT's replacement. He's really only been seen as a forward this year so it seemed like a bit of an after thought.

Did we do enough to set him up for success? Granted we've given him plenty of opportunity by throwing him into the deep end but I think the way we value the role of a ruckman is flawed.

Josh Fraser's post career comments may have relevance here. He said he wised he had a mature ruck to learn and develop with through his first 5 years at Collingwood. He thinks he would have been a better ruckman if he hadn't of been thrown to the wolves so young .

[jazzadogs]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Direct from a player at Port, Ladhams is a good guy but has pretty much agreed to go to the Hawks. Would put more weight into Ceglar being a 2022 Bulldog.

[jeemak]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

I don't think he needs more bulk. He's done 5 pre-seasons and he's certainly not the skinny kid who first arrived at the club.
At his best he looks pretty good but our window is now and if a great offer came then we should look at it.

I'm not sure what our plan was to develop English into a premier ruck man. The year we drafted him we let Minson go, a couple of years later Campbell and Roughead were both let go with a minimal effort to keep Roughead late in proceedings.
We added a long term prospect in Jordon Sweet and a part timer ruck in Trengove and brought in the ageing Stef Martin as JT's replacement. He's really only been seen as a forward this year so it seemed like a bit of an after thought.

Did we do enough to set him up for success? Granted we've given him plenty of opportunity by throwing him into the deep end but I think the way we value the role of a ruckman is flawed.

Sorry, I should have said needs more bulk or more strength to play either positions, but currently if playing forward any decent defender will just play him back shoulder in a team defence and keep him under the footy. Cut off the space in front of him and taking his run renders him cooked.

As for setting him up for success, perhaps it was the view that getting games and training into him and preferring him over others as a primary ruck whilst we were rebuilding was the plan. And that it was apparent to the MC as it became apparent to many around here that he was really struggling to progress in the role so we looked elsewhere at the end of last year. Thus bringing Martin in and giving Sweet a go.

So what could we have done differently to develop Tim English as a ruckman? It's hard to say because we don't know how much of his training was dedicated to being a ruckman versus not being a ruckman, but I don't think the answer lay in playing him in the ruck less which is the only alternative to playing him in the ruck full time but others might disagree.

An edit in response to 1EDs comments from Josh Fraser, I think a big difference is that Tim only played nine games in his first two seasons compared to Fraser's 42 meaning he probably hasn't been thrown to the wolves in the same way. Surprisingly Tim averages 3.5 more hit outs than Josh did in his career.

[DOG GOD]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Direct from a player at Port, Ladhams is a good guy but has pretty much agreed to go to the Hawks. Would put more weight into Ceglar being a 2022 Bulldog.

God help us

[FrediKanoute]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Sorry, I should have said needs more bulk or more strength to play either positions, but currently if playing forward any decent defender will just play him back shoulder in a team defence and keep him under the footy. Cut off the space in front of him and taking his run renders him cooked.

As for setting him up for success, perhaps it was the view that getting games and training into him and preferring him over others as a primary ruck whilst we were rebuilding was the plan. And that it was apparent to the MC as it became apparent to many around here that he was really struggling to progress in the role so we looked elsewhere at the end of last year. Thus bringing Martin in and giving Sweet a go.

So what could we have done differently to develop Tim English as a ruckman? It's hard to say because we don't know how much of his training was dedicated to being a ruckman versus not being a ruckman, but I don't think the answer lay in playing him in the ruck less which is the only alternative to playing him in the ruck full time but others might disagree.

An edit in response to 1EDs comments from Josh Fraser, I think a big difference is that Tim only played nine games in his first two seasons compared to Fraser's 42 meaning he probably hasn't been thrown to the wolves in the same way. Surprisingly Tim averages 3.5 more hit outs than Josh did in his career.

Are we forgetting that English had a massive say in the game v the Lions? I get that Jackson nailed him after half time, but 10mins to go in the third we were in front - English wasn't the issue here. If I had a criticism of English and it applies to a number of other guys, its that he was a little overawed by the occasion, dropping marks, kicking balls up in the air and not really imposing himself. I think he would be disappointed with the game.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Are we forgetting that English had a massive say in the game v the Lions? I get that Jackson nailed him after half time, but 10mins to go in the third we were in front - English wasn't the issue here. If I had a criticism of English and it applies to a number of other guys, its that he was a little overawed by the occasion, dropping marks, kicking balls up in the air and not really imposing himself. I think he would be disappointed with the game.

We had quite a few overawed by the occasion IMO.

[azabob]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

God help us

Ceglar is a better option than Ladhams.

I’m ok with Ceglar.

[DOG GOD]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Ceglar is a better option than Ladhams.

I’m ok with Ceglar.

Sounds like I better get use to the idea.

[jeemak]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Are we forgetting that English had a massive say in the game v the Lions? I get that Jackson nailed him after half time, but 10mins to go in the third we were in front - English wasn't the issue here. If I had a criticism of English and it applies to a number of other guys, its that he was a little overawed by the occasion, dropping marks, kicking balls up in the air and not really imposing himself. I think he would be disappointed with the game.

I'm not. I'm not even worried about his impact on the game Saturday. I place the majority of the blame at the feet of our midfielders who couldn't go defencive or at least go neutral against their egotistical urges.

Earlier in the thread I've said I think we're at a crossroads with him, but that really doesn't have a lot to do with the GF.

[Hotdog60]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

We need to bite the bullet with Sweet if we are going to throw anyone in the deep end its him. His KPI's in the pre season is to be able to function on 80-90% game time. His a reasonable shot at goal and can swap with English if he needs a rest and he doesn't need to mark it in the forward line he's big enough just to make a contest and block for the others.
Jordan is 24 early next year and should be at the start of his peak if he is going to make it.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Sounds like I better get use to the idea.

Yeah it’s the likely outcome. It is what it is. There aren’t many options out there.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

English has pissed me off for two years now with his softness at the contest. But there is still big potential and I don’t want to be trading guys out against their will, especially those who are housemates with Naughton!

I don’t think trading him now will allow us to fill any glaring holes on our list. What awesome rucks or KPDs are available? Not a lot. We will only make minor upgrades to the list. And honestly, the ruck is an issue, but the biggest problem is our midfields sudden drop in concentration/intensity. This needs to be the major focus. We lost the GF and last 3 weeks of the H/A season because of them. Not the ruck. Not the KPD. We also got to the GF on the back of the midfields excellent pressure. So for me, that’s the area that needs fixing. Not knowing the cause I have no idea how we fix it. But we put trust into Bevo and the coaches. The difference between good and bad needs to be significantly reduced.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Saying all that, we definitely need cover at ruck and KPD. We can’t afford to go through major patches without Martin/English or Keath. We are very single point sensitive in these areas. Of course I’d love for a ready to go gun in both areas but don’t think it’ll happen this year.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2021 Trade Period Talk

Josh Fraser's post career comments may have relevance here. He said he wised he had a mature ruck to learn and develop with through his first 5 years at Collingwood. He thinks he would have been a better ruckman if he hadn't of been thrown to the wolves so young .

Fraser was an outstanding junior who could have been a very good AFL player but was pushed into the first ruck role without a lot of support and he never quite reached his potential.