Euro 2012

[chef]

Re: Euro 2012

Happy to see Holland out(not even a single point) and Portugal through. Hopefully this is a sign of things to come from Ronaldo.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Euro 2012

Karma for being dumbarses in the WC final. The funny thing was that they vowed to play the right way at Euro 2012 and got kicked out. Hopefully they don't learn the wrong lesson from this and think that they have to play like idiots to make it in big tournaments.

[whythelongface]

Re: Euro 2012

Karma for being dumbarses in the WC final. The funny thing was that they vowed to play the right way at Euro 2012 and got kicked out. Hopefully they don't learn the wrong lesson from this and think that they have to play like idiots to make it in big tournaments.

Agree with that. They should have played their natural game in the WC Final.

As for the Euro results - there will need to be some internal investigations into the poor display. Apart from the first 15 minutes today they were totally outplayed by Portugal. The German game was even worse. Think after the Danish game they lost all confidence. Even before the Euros they lost to Bulgaria and Bayern Munich which really showed they were not cohesive as a unit going into this tournament.

Reading some Dutch newspapers this morning think there was also a rift between the Coach and some of the players (surprise surprise). Robben was heard saying to Van Marwijk (coach) to shut up as instructions were shouted during the game. A small thing but it doesn't exactly show a team that is united.

Whilst Van Marwijk has recently extended his contract to 2016 it won't surprise if he is shown the door or walks. Think it is time for a change. The question is who do they install as Manager- maybe one of the old hands such as Hiddink, Advocaat or Beenhakker. Pity that Johan Cruyff doesn't hold any aspirations to coach the National team. Maybe Ronald Koeman might step up - he did a great job at Feyenoord this year.

My interest in the Euros is now limited to watching the Final. I would like to see France win but more than likely it will be a Germany v Spain final (if that were the case hope the Germans can win).

[LostDoggy]

Re: Euro 2012

Agree with that. They should have played their natural game in the WC Final.

As for the Euro results - there will need to be some internal investigations into the poor display.

I think it starts and ends with the selection of Van Bommel. He was a really good midfield general 5-7 years ago but has been on the decline for some years now, and even in the WC final was shown to be already two or three steps too slow for the technical, smart, fast, little darting midfielders of today, and basically had to become a serial fouling machine just to keep up.

That was TWO years ago, and he's only gotten slower and more grumpy -- at least at the WC he was still just quick enough to get a foot in to commit fouls and break up the rhythm of the game. Here he's too slow to even do that, so a lot of the goals they're giving up come straight from the hole that he's supposed to be patrolling: have a quick watch of their games and you'll see how many times the last or second last ball is played from the space just in front of their front two with Van Bommel nowhere to be seen, where opposition players like Ozil just find themselves in acres of green. Ozil, for one, has not seen space like that in three years.

Their centrebacks have been much maligned, but they're getting no protection whatsoever.

[whythelongface]

Re: Euro 2012

I think it starts and ends with the selection of Van Bommel. He was a really good midfield general 5-7 years ago but has been on the decline for some years now, and even in the WC final was shown to be already two or three steps too slow for the technical, smart, fast, little darting midfielders of today, and basically had to become a serial fouling machine just to keep up.

That was TWO years ago, and he's only gotten slower and more grumpy -- at least at the WC he was still just quick enough to get a foot in to commit fouls and break up the rhythm of the game. Here he's too slow to even do that, so a lot of the goals they're giving up come straight from the hole that he's supposed to be patrolling: have a quick watch of their games and you'll see how many times the last or second last ball is played from the space just in front of their front two with Van Bommel nowhere to be seen, where opposition players like Ozil just find themselves in acres of green. Ozil, for one, has not seen space like that in three years.

Their centrebacks have been much maligned, but they're getting no protection whatsoever.

Good analysis. It helps with selections when you are the coach's son-in-law. To his credit Van Marwijk replaced him at halftime against Germany (after the damage was already done) and didn't select him against Portugal.

The space between the offense and defense is a huge factor in why Holland have lost all 3 games this campaign. The wingbacks don't play a traditional defensive role and are caught out of position (see van der Weil and Willems) thus meaning the central defenders have too cover for them. This creates space in the centre of the park when the opposition midfielders stream forward. This is even highlighted even more when Van Bommel is on the park due to his lack of pace. Today he tried VDV in this position, however he is naturally attacking and was played out of position and therefore his game was somewhat nullified.

As poor as the Dutch central defenders are it is hard to defend when you have little help. Whilst they are much maligned the problems stem from the midfield. They need to change their structure. They really need to change their coach and adopted a new pattern of play - go back to playing the Cruyff influenced game - similar to what Spain are playing. Mind you need the cattle to be able to play that type of expansive game.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Euro 2012

Good analysis. It helps with selections when you are the coach's son-in-law. To his credit Van Marwijk replaced him at halftime against Germany (after the damage was already done) and didn't select him against Portugal.

The space between the offense and defense is a huge factor in why Holland have lost all 3 games this campaign. The wingbacks don't play a traditional defensive role and are caught out of position (see van der Weil and Willems) thus meaning the central defenders have too cover for them. This creates space in the centre of the park when the opposition midfielders stream forward. This is even highlighted even more when Van Bommel is on the park due to his lack of pace. Today he tried VDV in this position, however he is naturally attacking and was played out of position and therefore his game was somewhat nullified.

As poor as the Dutch central defenders are it is hard to defend when you have little help. Whilst they are much maligned the problems stem from the midfield. They need to change their structure. They really need to change their coach and adopted a new pattern of play - go back to playing the Cruyff influenced game - similar to what Spain are playing. Mind you need the cattle to be able to play that type of expansive game.

Great points. Van Bommel didn't play in the Portugal game, but it was already too late and when he's the captain you're basically trying to change a team mid-tournament. Like you said, VDV is not a defensive midfielder either.

Van Marwijk is a classic international coach in that he doesn't really spend all the years in between tournaments building a coherent playing style, but focuses on selection instead, and then relies on a 'broken team' strategy, generally 4 attacking players and 6 defensive players, or 5 and 5, and just let's the attacking bit do the attacking and the defending bit do the defending, rather than creating a coherent 11 that moves up and down together. It's easier to coach because there's not a lot of time to prepare before tournaments, but this generally results in big gaps between attackers and defenders on the transition. The teams that do best are the ones that have been playing together forever, grew up together, or have lots of players from the same club, because a coherent 11 will generally outplay a 'broken team'.

[whythelongface]

Re: Euro 2012

Great points. Van Bommel didn't play in the Portugal game, but it was already too late and when he's the captain you're basically trying to change a team mid-tournament. Like you said, VDV is not a defensive midfielder either.

Van Marwijk is a classic international coach in that he doesn't really spend all the years in between tournaments building a coherent playing style, but focuses on selection instead, and then relies on a 'broken team' strategy, generally 4 attacking players and 6 defensive players, or 5 and 5, and just let's the attacking bit do the attacking and the defending bit do the defending, rather than creating a coherent 11 that moves up and down together. It's easier to coach because there's not a lot of time to prepare before tournaments, but this generally results in big gaps between attackers and defenders on the transition. The teams that do best are the ones that have been playing together forever, grew up together, or have lots of players from the same club, because a coherent 11 will generally outplay a 'broken team'.

This sums things up perfectly. Why were the Dutch so good in the '70s? Because the team was mainly made up of players from Ajax. Why are Germany and Spain so good at present. Due to having players mainly from Bayern Munich and Barcelona respectively. The German starting 11 has something like 7 or 8 from Bayern. No wonder they function as such a unit. This makes a huge difference to a team. There are exceptions of course to this rule but by god it helps.

Unfortunately these days the Dutch are all individuals who come together and whilst they have played together, as a National team, for a number of years their styles of play change for the club teams they play for. You only need to look at Van Persie's inept play when he plays for Holland compared to when he plays for Arsenal. What a contrast. A world class striker who basically is played out of position (WTF is he doing retrieving balls in the defense half of the field) or he doesn't get the supply he gets at Arsenal.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Euro 2012

Ditto Ronaldo for Portugal.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Euro 2012

I see Italy winning easily tonight but Spain and Croatia playing out a 2-2 draw meaning Italy go out. .
As what happened in 2004

[The Coon Dog]

Re: Euro 2012

Results of overnight Group C games:

Spain 1
Croatia 0

Italy 2
Ireland 0


Spain 7pts
Italy 5pts
Croatia 4pts
Ireland 0pts

[Eastdog]

Re: Euro 2012

Results of overnight Group C games:

Spain 1
Croatia 0

Italy 2
Ireland 0


Spain 7pts
Italy 5pts
Croatia 4pts
Ireland 0pts

Not really too many surprises in that group with Spain easily going through and Italy and Croatia fighting it out for 2nd with Italy going through. Ireland had a difficult group so it always was going to be hard for them as they are weaker compared to the other 3 teams.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Euro 2012

Croatia were stiff. Penalty claims, some good Casselas saves and the Spanish goal was offside.

[The Coon Dog]

Re: Euro 2012

Results of Group D games played this morning:

Ukraine 0
England 1

France 0
Sweden 2


England 7pts
France 4pts
Ukraine 3pts
Sweden 3pts

[The Coon Dog]

Re: Euro 2012

Quarter Final Draw:


QF1
Fri 22 Jun 4.45am
Czech Republic
Portugal


QF2
Sat 23 Jun 4.45am
Germany
Greece



QF3
Sun 24 Jun 4.45am
Spain
France


QF4
Mon 25 Jun 4.45am
England
Italy


Winners of QF1 v QF3 & winners of QF2 v QF4 in the Semi Finals.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Euro 2012

Spain vs. France will be a cracker. France are playing a possession style too these days.. I wonder how they'll both cope with only having 50% possession when they are used to 70+. It'll be like Barcelona vs. Arsenal, I suppose.