2023 List Management Thread

[DOG GOD]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Geez that list is very average reading, and out of that group that's no longer with us, they were held onto for far too long, when it was obvious within 2 years they weren’t making it.

[jeemak]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Thank you for posting this. Reading it in black and white is fairly stark reading.

Excluding 2022 as it is too early to tell; 13 out of 21 non national draft picks have not worked.

I don't think we have a choice but to take four players in this years national draft.

While we've only cut 4 of 18 of those taken in the national draft thus far, how much hope do we hold out that Garcia, West, Cleary, Clarke, Bedendo, Gallagher and Jones will make footballers of themselves?

It's conceivable in 12-24 months time none of them will be on our list, making it 11 out of 18 draftees (61%, versus 62% of non-drafted) missing out - taking for granted all of the others will have careers.

The draft seems to be used for longer term development, while trading and other list category spots are more of a hybrid between ready to play and development, and are probably more speculative by nature unless the trade-ins are proven AFL players (which either cost you players or draft picks for the most part).

Whilst I don't disagree we could tip the balance towards the draft a little more, I'll only be convinced we should drastically increase the balance when some draftees from the past five years who aren't high picks actually prove our drafting has been any good.

[G-Mo77]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Thanks for posting that GVG. I've mentioned this before, if we are reviewing what's going on internally we need to review our list managers and recruiters. Who is behind the constant selections of cast offs and battlers?

[Bigdog]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

The issue with our list management approach that seems to get lost in the discussion is that we aren't selecting enough players via the National Draft and we are adding more short term solutions via the rookie list and Cat B options.

2017 - Naughton, Richards and Porter* via the National Draft
Crozier?, Schache*, Trengove* and Gowers* via other trade and rookie draft options

2018 - Smith, West, Vandermeer, Cavarra* and Hayes* via the National Draft
Duryea?, Lloyd*, Gardner, Khamis?, Young* and Sweet* via other trade and rookie draft options

2019 - Weightman, Butler* and Garcia via the National Draft
Bruce* and Keath via trades

2020 - Ugle-Hagan and Bedendo? via the National Draft
Hannan*, Martin*, Treloar, McNeil and Scott via other trade and rookie draft options

2021 - Darcy, Jones and Cleary via the National Draft
O'Brien*, Raak*, Parker* and McComb* via other trade and rookie draft options

2022 - Busslinger, Clarke and Gallagher via the National Draft
Lobb, Jones, O'Donnell, Baker and Poulter via other trade and rookie draft options

2023 - We have flagged between 2 and 4 players to be selected at the National Draft.

Yes we have had to get some NGA and father son picks through the door but at some point, and it won't be this year, we will need to go a bit heavier via the National Draft.

The 2022 National Draft is so critical. If we are to rebound quickly these picks need to come on as early as next year. Each are in a position of need, if there good enough there is a spot calling there names.

Saying that I’m concerned unless we change our system Busslinger won’t have the mobility to play in our line up (Not Buss’ fault). With the amount of space we leave our defenders need to have elite speed.

On Charlie Clarke, he needs to have a massive pre-season. He didn’t look fit or strong enough for vfl level which is understandable given he had injury problems. I hope his got good training standards or is being taken under the wing of by an elite trainer.

I’m confident in Gallagher. His going to be a good player. I’ve never seen him live though. I hope his a two way runner.

[Mofra]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

The 2022 National Draft is so critical. If we are to rebound quickly these picks need to come on as early as next year. Each are in a position of need, if there good enough there is a spot calling there names.

Saying that I’m concerned unless we change our system Busslinger won’t have the mobility to play in our line up (Not Buss’ fault). With the amount of space we leave our defenders need to have elite speed.

On Charlie Clarke, he needs to have a massive pre-season. He didn’t look fit or strong enough for vfl level which is understandable given he had injury problems. I hope his got good training standards or is being taken under the wing of by an elite trainer.

I’m confident in Gallagher. His going to be a good player. I’ve never seen him live though. I hope his a two way runner.

TBH I'm more confident with Clarke and Gallagher than I am with Buss.
Clarke really does show glimpses of talent, he just needs time (and to echo your sentiments about tank, perhaps 2-3 pre-seasons).
Gallagher will play senior football next year, whether it's a couple of games or more.

[mjp]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

I’m confident in Gallagher. His going to be a good player. I’ve never seen him live though. I hope his a two way runner.

Why so confident then? I've never seen him live either and am interested to know where exactly he's going to play (AFL Level).

[azabob]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

While we've only cut 4 of 18 of those taken in the national draft thus far, how much hope do we hold out that Garcia, West, Cleary, Clarke, Bedendo, Gallagher and Jones will make footballers of themselves?

It's conceivable in 12-24 months time none of them will be on our list, making it 11 out of 18 draftees (61%, versus 62% of non-drafted) missing out - taking for granted all of the others will have careers.

The draft seems to be used for longer term development, while trading and other list category spots are more of a hybrid between ready to play and development, and are probably more speculative by nature unless the trade-ins are proven AFL players (which either cost you players or draft picks for the most part).

Whilst I don't disagree we could tip the balance towards the draft a little more, I'll only be convinced we should drastically increase the balance when some draftees from the past five years who aren't high picks actually prove our drafting has been any good.

West, Garcia and Jones have shown afl traits. Too early to tell on Gallagher and Clarke. Cleary and Bendendo are unlikely.

Drafting four players via the national draft isn’t drastic. The reality is based on players in V players out we have had more recent success with our national draft picks and we need to nail them.

What is your plan for this period?

[azabob]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Thanks for posting that GVG. I've mentioned this before, if we are reviewing what's going on internally we need to review our list managers and recruiters. Who is behind the constant selections of cast offs and battlers?

Power was the constant.
Nick Austin was our head recruiter for a couple of years and then Dom Milessi.

[Go_Dogs]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Moving up to pick 4 would be great but it's unfortunately not the greatest draft for us. It's very shallow on midfield talent. Next year's is supposedly loaded with midfielders. Will we look to trade in some future firsts for next year?

Is there any merit in us trading out of the first round for future firsts, taking Croft and then rolling the dice on a player or two late? Then really loading up on midfield options in 2024 with a view they?ll be hitting their straps as Darcy/Marra/Croft/Buss are hitting their straps? I?m basing this on the comment next year bats deep for top end midfield talent at this stage - noting that of course can change quickly!

Pick 6 is great, and we should be getting more quality players into our list and taking first round selections in each draft? however reading through the profiles of players likely to be available I can?t say I?m as enthused as I?d like to be.

It?s such a fascinating draft for us and I have no idea what we should do.

[jeemak]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

West, Garcia and Jones have shown afl traits. Too early to tell on Gallagher and Clarke. Cleary and Bendendo are unlikely.

Drafting four players via the national draft isn’t drastic. The reality is based on players in V players out we have had more recent success with our national draft picks and we need to nail them.

What is your plan for this period?

By don't disagree I meant that taking four players makes sense to me. I feel some are advocating for more than that, which I think would be asking a lot when we haven't really proved our talent watchers are up to it.

Yes, West, Garcia and Jones have all shown traits but I'm not sold on them having lasting careers. Agree on the others.

I guess I view recruiting a bit like buying stocks. You're likely to get a better result from a relatively balanced view across sources than you are from a homogenised view.

[azabob]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

By don't disagree I meant that taking four players makes sense to me. I feel some are advocating for more than that, which I think would be asking a lot when we haven't really proved our talent watchers are up to it.

Yes, West, Garcia and Jones have all shown traits but I'm not sold on them having lasting careers. Agree on the others.

I guess I view recruiting a bit like buying stocks. You're likely to get a better result from a relatively balanced view across sources than you are from a homogenised view.

We need to find the ETF of players to help with our success rate.

[Bornadog]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Great list GVGjr, I just wonder if what we are doing is the same at all clubs, except maybe GWS and GC as they had access to alot more first rounders and have kept trading players and picks over the past 10 years. Let's face it, all things being equal, you only get one each of 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders, which makes it difficult to turn over the list quicker.

This year I want us to use at least 4 draft picks.

[Bigdog]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Why so confident then? I've never seen him live either and am interested to know where exactly he's going to play (AFL Level).

I watch our games on stream on the afl app. I just haven’t seen him in the flesh. The only things you can’t tell without being at the ground is their defensive actions (positioning/running patterns). I would expect his defensive side to be lacking as are most that come out of tac footy. It’s really on the club to develop his defensive game.

I think he makes it because his got traits that suit the modern game. His fast, his a good ball user and he doesn’t thumble. I’d expect him to play on a wing as that’s where he played at vfl. However he played tac footy on all lines.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

Thanks for posting that GVG. I've mentioned this before, if we are reviewing what's going on internally we need to review our list managers and recruiters. Who is behind the constant selections of cast offs and battlers?

I don't get why we aren't brave enough this year to have a dip of backing our identification abilities. Selecting 4 players is acceptable but I do think 5 would be better.
Powers acknowledged the top end of the draft but also said the depth was pretty good as well.
I don't mind bringing in players with a shorter term horizon when we are around the mark but it's vastly harder to justify with an older experienced list and not being in the top 8. It's something like 14 years since we made the top 4 at the end of the H&A season so the top up approach isn't quite putting us into a strong enough position to genuinely contend.
Would we lose much traction if we took a few risks with the occasional later pick?

[Bigdog]

Re: 2023 List Management Thread

TBH I'm more confident with Clarke and Gallagher than I am with Buss.
Clarke really does show glimpses of talent, he just needs time (and to echo your sentiments about tank, perhaps 2-3 pre-seasons).
Gallagher will play senior football next year, whether it's a couple of games or more.

I don’t know what to make of Clarke. I really need to see him next season when he improves his tank.

In the vfl he played more of a Gryan Myers creative assist role. I had assume he was more a Tom Papley type when we recuited him. He shows little glimpses but he also looked a bit slow (I’m not sure if this was fitness related), his pressure was not manic enough and he didn’t stick his tackles. I wanna see how he goes with a full pre season.

I hope he has the maturity to work his backside off this preseason, because the nature of the game is that small fowards don’t get a lot of time unless they are playing league footy. I really hope he makes it but he won’t be treated the same way as developing tall early pick or not.